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CDA Trial Transcript 4/12/96 (morning)

                              - - -
   UNION, et al                  :
                     Plaintiffs  :
                v.               :  Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
                                 :  April 12, 1996
   JANET RENO, in her official   :  
   capacity as ATTORNEY GENERAL  :
   OF THE UNITED STATES,         :
                      Defendant  :
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                         HEARING BEFORE:
                     FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT
                              - - -
   For the Plaintiffs:  CHRISTOPHER A. HANSEN, ESQUIRE
                        MARJORIE HEINS, ESQUIRE
                        ANN BEESON, ESQUIRE
                        American Civil Liberties Union
                        132 West 43rd Street
                        New York, NY  10036
                        STEFAN PRESSER, ESQUIRE
                        American Civil Liberties Union
                        123 S. 9th Street, Suite 701
                        Philadelphia, PA  19107
   For the ALA          BRUCE J. ENNIS, JR., ESQUIRE
   Plaintiffs:          ANN M. KAPPLER, ESQUIRE
                        JOHN B. MORRIS, JR., ESQUIRE
                        Jenner and Block
                        601 13th Street, N.W.
                        Washington, DC  20005
                              - - -
   APPEARANCES:  (Continued)
   For the Defendant:   ANTHONY J. COPPOLINO, ESQUIRE
                        PATRICIA RUSSOTTO, ESQUIRE
                        JASON R. BARON, ESQUIRE
                        THEODORE C. HIRT
                        Department of Justice
                        901 E. Street, N.W.
                        Washington, DC  20530
                        MARK KMETZ, ESQUIRE
                        U.S. Attorney's Office
                        615 Chestnut Street, Suite 1250
                        Philadelphia, PA  19106
                              - - -
   Also Present:        MICHAEL KUNZ
                        Clerk of the Court for the
                        Eastern District of Pennsylvania
                              - - -
   Deputy Clerks:       Thomas Clewley
                        Matthew J. Higgins
   Audio Operator:      Andrea L. Mack
   Transcribed by:      Geraldine C. Laws
                        Grace Williams
                        Tracey Williams
                        Laws Transcription Service
   (Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording; transcript 
   provided by computer-aided transcription service.)
   	(The following occurred in open court at 9:38 o'clock a.m.:)
   	CLERK OF COURT KUNZ:  Oyez, oyez, oyez, all persons having 
   any matters to present before the Honorable Delores K. Sloviter, 
   Chief Judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Third 
   Circuit; and the Honorable Ronald L. Buckwalter and the Honorable 
   Stuart Dalzell, Judges of the United States District Court for the 
   Eastern District of Pennsylvania, may be present and appear and 
   they shall be heard.  God save the United States and this 
   Honorable Court.  Court is now in session, please be seated.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Good morning.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Good morning, everyone.
   	ALL COUNSEL:  Good morning, your Honors.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  We will resume in ACLU v. Reno, et al.  I 
   believe that we're to begin with the Government's case?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Good morning, your Honor.  At this time the 
   Government calls Howard Schmidt.
   	HOWARD SCHMIDT, Defendants' Witness, Sworn.
   	THE COURT CLERK:  Thank you, please be seated.  Please state 
   and spell your name.
   	THE WITNESS:  My name is Howard A. Schmidt, S-c-h-m-i-d-t,
   first name is H-o-w-a-r-d.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Good morning, your Honor.  For the record, I 
   will identify myself again as Anthony Coppolino with the Justice 
   Department.  Your Honor, at this time I offer into evidence the 
   direct testimony/declaration of Howard Schmidt and all of the 
   exhibits that are attached thereto, which has been provided to the 
   Court.  Thank you.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Oh, I think that they're having an offer of 
   proof on that -- he's offering into evidence --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Are you offering the exhibits right now?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Well, I had planned to because I thought he 
   might refer to them initially in his demonstration.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, they're for identification right now.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Okay.
   	MS. HEINS:  We have an objection, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Right, we understand.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Let's hear it.
   	MS. HEINS:  Marjorie Heins for the ACLU plaintiffs.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  You better come before the...
   	MS. HEINS:  Marjorie Heins for the ACLU plaintiffs.  We 
   object to the introduction into evidence of Mr. Schmidt's 
   declaration to the extent he purports to be an expert in any of 
   the five separate subject-matter areas that are referenced on Page 
   4, Paragraph 5 of the declaration.  
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, do you want to do voir dire on that?
   	(Discussion held off the record.)
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, the Court has considered it and we 
   believe that he is as much an expert in this as the plaintiffs' 
   witnesses were on the matters which they were called.  We're going 
   to check each ruling on this -- do you agree with that?
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Yes, we agree with that, sure.
   	MS. HEINS:  If I can just state briefly for the record, Mr. 
   Schmidt is undoubtedly an expert in computer forensics and 
   investigatory techniques, law enforcement investigatory techniques 
   connected with computers.  However, the five subject-matter areas 
   on which he purports to be an expert are not within his area of 
   expertise.  To start from the top, since he is such an expert -- 
   he can certainly testify as to what he did on the computer and the 
   Court can take into consideration and make its own judgment 
   whether it's easy or difficult to access the materials that Mr. 
   Schmidt accessed, but since he is such a computer expert we don't 
   think he's really in a position to testify as to how easy it would 
   be for a child to access these materials, that's fact --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, we're not going to have --
   	MS. HEINS:  -- not opinion.  I'm sorry.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  -- we're not going to have a child up here 
   testifying and we have been very lax with all of the parties with 
   respect to expertise, we have said throughout that we will take 
   the witness and the witness' expertise for whatever it's worth to 
   us and we see no reason to treat one party differently than 
   another for this purpose.  That of course is not the same as 
   saying that any of the material is or isn't relevant, an entirely 
   different issue.
   	MS. HEINS:  I understand.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  So, I believe that the panel believes that 
   for this purpose we will accept the witness as an expert to the 
   extent and for what it's worth.
   	MS. HEINS:  I understand, but if I just may briefly complete 
   my statement?  I think each witness is different, the expertise of 
   each witness is different and this witness' expertise does not go 
   to any of the subject-matter areas that he describes on Page 4.  
   And just briefly to conclude that, his opinions as to the 
   pervasiveness or the -- what percentage or what quantity of 
   sexually-explicit or pornographic material is available, again, we 
   don't think that's a matter that he has expertise in; he's not a 
   sociologist of the Internet, he has no studies, it's simply 
   impressionistic.  And finally, with respect to his claims of 
   expertise as to the ability of parents to supervise their children 
   using computers or the availability or feasibility of so-called 
   adult identification and password systems, as to the first he is 
   not expert or knowledgeable in particular in parent-child 
   relationships, he has no knowledge of how many households with 
   children have computers, how many children use them, all he has 
   told us at his deposition is some anecdotes about parents 
   expressing concerns; and with respect to the adult-identification 
   ideas, his testimony has been quite clear and I think the 
   Government will agree, he has absolutely no expertise in that 
   area.  His total knowledge of the adult password systems is based 
   on what he has read on Web screens, which the Court can make 
   judgments about as well as he.  
   	So, we don't object to his factual testimony except to the 
   extent we have already set forth in our motion in limine, but with 
   respect to expert opinions we simply don't think that his 
   expertise corresponds to what he is claiming.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.  The panel, we will accept it for 
   what it's worth.
   	MS. HEINS:  Thank you.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Your Honor, I'm not going to respond on that 
   point since I think you have ruled.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, because we've ruled.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  You won the argument.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  I just -- I neglect --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  You want to say that we're really right?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  I neglected to indicate that, as we had 
   conferred with Judge Dalzell earlier in the week, the witness will 
   be presenting a brief demonstration on -- of various sources and 
   sites on the Internet.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Yes.  Well, are you going to tell us before 
   you put it -- all right.  Well, we'll take this testimony slowly, 
   so that we understand what it is.  There is some concern by some 
   members of the panel at least as to the relevance of some of this 
   material, but let's proceed and we'll see.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Thank you.
   	THE WITNESS:  Good morning, your Honors.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Good morning.
   	THE WITNESS:  Am I okay on the microphone?
   	THE WITNESS:  What I'd like to do, as Mr. Coppolino pointed 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Wait a minute, has a question been asked to 
   you?  I mean, I think -- is there --
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  I'm sorry --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, he's going to do a demonstration and it 
   was going to be done in narrative form.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay, that's all right, but I didn't know 
   that he had been asked to start.  Okay, go ahead, Mr. Schmidt.
   	THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  We can't see you on the monitors, I 
   certainly can't.  Go ahead.
   	THE WITNESS:  As Mr. Coppolino stated, what I'd like to do is 
   give you a demonstration to show you some of the features of the 
   Internet and some of the workings of the Internet, as stated 
   before.  What I'm going to use is the Netscape Web Browser as kind 
   of the single tool to do the demonstration, as I believe you have 
   seen before during previous testimony.  The Netscape Web Browser 
   when first activated by double clicking on a particular icon, you 
   have the ability to determine what home page or what Web site it 
   initially goes to upon startup.  In this case I have selected 
   through one of the options the Web site of Netscape Corporation, 
   which is the manufacturer of this particular piece of software 
   that's in popular use today.  As you can see by the screen in 
   front of you, there's some graphics involved and as I move the 
   mouse pointer across the screen, as it changes from a pointer into 
   a hand, this indicates to me that there is some sort of a link 
   that I can select by clicking the mouse button and go to another 
   location.  Across the bottom of this top graphic there's items 
   such as exploring the Net, companies and products, general store, 
   et cetera, as I move across you can see I could select any one of 
   those areas to determine which part of the Web page and which link 
   I want to go to from here.  Additionally, there are some other 
   menu selections that are built in this particular area, such as 
   what's new, what's cool, handbook, Net search, Net directory, 
   which give you some of the same capabilities, but instead of 
   looking through the document itself you can select it as you would 
   from a menu position.
   	One of the first ones I'd like to demonstrate is the Net 
   search capability.  By putting my mouse pointer over the word Net 
   search, I click it once, and as you'll notice there's a red, sort 
   of a stop-sign-looking icon appear up here, which indicates that 
   it's currently going out to retrieve a document from a server 
   somewhere.  As the document becomes displayed on the screen you 
   see it is partially is drawn, and it goes back to the server and 
   retrieves bits and pieces of the document to draw the screen in 
   its total format.
   	Now, as we have the screen in front of us, you can see once 
   again by moving the cursor, I can select certain aspects of it.  
   From previous testimony I believe there was discussion about some 
   of the search routines, such as Lykos, Magellan, Yahoo, Infoseek, 
   these are all here, these are multiple-search engines that I could 
   select from this particular position in the menu.  Also, if your 
   Honors will notice, on the right-hand side of the screen there is 
   an up arrow and a down arrow down at the bottom, which is referred 
   to as the elevator bar.  There is more text or more substance 
   below what's currently on the screen, so by scrolling down, by 
   clicking on the down arrow on the right-hand side you'll see in 
   addition to the links that I can select by moving the cursor 
   around, I also can select by a narrative certain search engines 
   that are available here.  For example, the first one that comes up 
   is a search engine, which is part of the Lykos engine called A to 
   Z.  This is similar to some of the other search engines we have 
   seen and what I'd like to do at this point is select that one.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Why do you take that one, from the -- 
   because it says from the "Best Kid's Page," what is there about 
   that one?
   	THE WITNESS:  This one has a lot of different subject 
   categories that you could search from by subcategories, as I'll be 
   demonstrating to the Court in just a moment.  The other ones would 
   do similar things, your Honor, as it just so happened that one was 
   the first one that was available under that particular search 
   routine -- as well as I have prepared this demonstration, that's 
   the one that I would use in the process of doing that.
   	As you can see, once again, as I move the mouse cursor around 
   I have the ability to select particular images that might click 
   and link to me another site.  I also have in this box here, which 
   we will demonstrate in a little bit, where I could click in there 
   and type in a particular phrase or some search routine that I 
   would like to use, or I have the broader spectrum of different 
   types of subjects down here that one might be interested in.  
   	Now, obviously since we're in a Court, in a Federal Court, 
   Government would be of interest I believe to most of the members 
   here, and I'd like to select at this time the Government as a 
   subcategory.  At this point it went out, read some information off 
   of the server in which this information is actually stored, and 
   came back, identified that I have selected Government as the 
   primary category, here are some subcategories under the Government 
   phase, which are also listed in the center portion of the screen.  
   Over here, since we're in a court of law, I would like to select 
   at this time law, which may be of interest to us as well.  And it 
   immediately goes out and shows me that I'm under the category of 
   Government, subcategory of law, and now the screen changes a 
   little bit in composition from what we saw before.  As I'm slowing 
   clicking it up for the Court to be able to see, I now have an 
   alphabet out here that I could select and jump to any particular 
   character beginning -- for example, if I selected the letter P, it 
   might start with some legal aspects with the letter P in the first 
   character.  I also could search, as I started to do on the right-
   hand side by clicking down, specific text-related things, as I 
   move the cursor down here it changes to a hand, I could click and 
   go to advertising law, a firm based in Washington, D.C., et 
   cetera, as I go down those links A through Z as well.
   	In this case I want to, with the Court's permission, move 
   back over to -- as I mentioned earlier, to the box where it says 
   "find."  By clicking my mouse and moving into there, you notice it 
   changes from a pointer to sort of an iron-bar-looking icon.  The 
   cursor is now flashing in there and since, once again, we are in a 
   Federal Court I would like to type in Federal Courts.  And instead 
   of perusing by viewing each one of the narratives in there I can 
   just tell it by clicking on the words "go get it" to go out to a 
   site and give me anything related to Federal Courts.  As the Court 
   can see, once again we've come back with the search results, the A 
   to Z search.  Under the words of Federal Court it says that 152 
   documents were located containing the words federal, federally or 
   	The first one we could scroll down and see a number of the 
   selections we have here... and at any time, if the Court would 
   like, please, I would be more than happy to stop as well.  And for 
   the purpose of the demonstration I have selected the Federal 
   Judicial Center, which I have reviewed and thought might contain 
   some interest -- some items of interest for the Court.  Once again 
   I move to that particular link, click one time, it goes back out 
   to that particular computer system, retrieves that information, 
   retrieves the graphics, retrieves some text and basically repaints 
   the screen on our monitor for us to see.  	Down here, as the 
   Court has already seen a few times, we have links, as I move 
   across these particular links it changes to a hand, I could go to 
   them.  Either that or I could select one of the graphic images 
   here and go to one of the areas that are listed about the FJC 
   publications, other Worldwide Web servers or telephone directory.
   	Through the preparation of this demonstration I went to the 
   publication, which I would like to do at this time.  And at this 
   juncture it brings me a list of different publications from the 
   Federal Judicial Center publications, and it talks about their 
   formats and different publications that are available for one to 
   look through.  Clicking down through some of them you can see some 
   of them address the areas of appellate courts, bankruptcy courts, 
   civil litigation, and some of the subdocuments involved in those 
   categories that are available for one to go out and link to.  In 
   this case I'll select, if it's okay with the Court, stalking, the 
   increase -- the rate of Federal civil appeals, I'll link to that 
   particular document.  Now, it's going out and it's retrieving that 
   information and making it available for my review.  And it gives a 
   brief narrative of what the document is about, and it says a 32-
   page report, et cetera.  And it also gives me the option, if 
   you'll notice just underneath the paragraph of text here, it says, 
   "download a PDF version of this document," which is kind of a 
   universal formatting language.  We can actually go to the site, 
   retrieve the actual document itself and transfer it from where 
   it's located at the Federal Judicial Center to our computer here 
   for later review, and all we would have to do is one click and 
   bring that document back.
   	At this time, your Honor, what I'd like to do is go back to 
   some of the previous pages we have and there's a couple ways I can 
   do that.  I believe you saw an earlier demonstration, there's what 
   appears to be like a VCR button up here in the upper left-hand 
   corner, as the mouse cursor sits over it the word "back" appears, 
   that means I can click and go back through previous pages in the 
   sequence in which I have viewed the pages or the user has viewed 
   the pages.  I can also, if I didn't want to scroll back or go back 
   through a number of pages, go up to this menu selection where it 
   says, "go," and I can then see the pages that I have selected 
   previously, as I move the mouse pointer across them it highlights 
   those.  So, I can go back to a specific page in particular and go 
   back and find a document that I reviewed earlier without clicking 
   two, three, four times to get back to the starting point.
   	Okay, at this point I'd like to go back to the A to Z home 
   page and I click that, it brought us back to there.  One of the 
   other areas that I have prepared for the demonstration was the 
   area I have selected under arts and leisure.  Once again, as I did 
   with the Government, I go over to that particular menu selection, 
   click once on the mouse... noticing the Court's attention to -- 
   entertainment/leisure being the menu selection.  Once again, it 
   has a number of different subcategories that one might select by a 
   click of a mouse to get certain areas of information that might be 
   of interest to them.   Once again, for this particular 
   demonstration I have selected the subcategory of travel, I click 
   on travel.  And as we have seen in the previous screens for the 
   courts and for the Government and law we have the narrative by -- 
   in alphabetical order, we can also select by the alphabet up here.  
   And in this case what I'd like to do is select the letter P for 
   Philadelphia, which is the town that I grew up in.  Using the 
   right mouse I can go down and click, an area of interest would be 
   Philadelphia history.  As you can see I move over to that link of 
   Philadelphia history, click once with the mouse and it clicks to 
   -- or it's in the process of retrieving information from a Website 
   known as libertynet.org, and I can tell that because up in the 
   open blank space up here it says the http information, Worldwide 
   Web, libertynet.org is the name of the computer system, which is 
   information stored, and it's stored in a subfile or a subdirectory 
   as it were IHA.  The screen has now been redrawn with the 
   information that I have requested to be transferred to my display 
   here and, once again, I can move across and click on certain areas 
   such as historic mile, Betsy Ross, Valley Forge, places to eat, 
   various nightlife, et cetera.  As the Court can see as I move 
   across, all of these particular images on here would link me to 
   another location on a computer server that may contain some 
   information I might be interested in.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Does the location -- is the location shown 
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Always?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes.  It will show in the link, if you'll 
   notice in the lower left-hand corner, which may be difficult, I 
   know even with my glasses --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, we can see it.
   	THE WITNESS:  -- it's relatively small text, but as I move 
   from one of the icons to another down in the lower left-hand 
   corner it points to the link in text format that I'm over -- that 
   my hand is over now on the screen.  For example, this one says 
   philfood.html, it's still at the same domain, libertynet.org, even 
   though it would not have to necessarily be stored on that same 
   domain, and it's under that same filing cabinet or that same 
   subdirectory, IHA, except this document is called philfood.html.  
   I can move over here to nightlife and it says philnight.html, 
   which is the same as just -- almost similar to a word processing 
   document by naming a word processing document differently for 
   different things that you might have in that document.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And what is always the relationship between 
   the location showing up on the left-hand top and at the bottom?
   	THE WITNESS:  The left-hand top is the current site that 
   we're viewing, the current Webpage that we're viewing at this 
   time, the bottom is the one that that particular item, in this 
   case I currently have it over nightlife, that's -- if I were to 
   click that I would link to this particular site as it's indicated 
   in the lower left-hand corner.  Once successfully accomplishing 
   that link, that particular name that is currently in the lower 
   left would replace what's currently in the upper left, so that 
   would indicate that I'm now at that site as well.  And if the 
   Court like I'll demonstrate that as --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, that's all right -- is that all right 
   with you?
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  That's all right.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  That's all right.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But who decides, is there some way that 
   the... I'm not sure I know the right word... whoever is 
   responsible for naming this, is that organization or entity able 
   to name it in any way or to put something in that name that will 
   designate it in one way or the other?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor.  This, just like 
   any word-processing document that one of us may generate, we can 
   choose to name it any name that we like in with the normal naming 
   conventions of that particular computer system.  For example, in 
   the Unix environment, which a lot of this data is stored on, you 
   could have a rather lengthy name and a very descriptive name as to 
   what that particular document would be,
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But can you add a header for -- which is 
   what you might call it in regular word processing, for any 
   material or group of material as you choose?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, and I'll give you that in a 
   two-part answer, if I may.  For example, if you'll notice in the 
   name up here in the open box where it says IHA, that is a 
   subdirectory equivalent for example, say, to a file drawer within 
   a file cabinet.  That can be named anything we want, for example, 
   it just could have easily been named history instead of IHA, we 
   can name that and identify anything related to this particular 
   series of documents would be stored in that particular file 
   	Accordingly, on the other side where we were pointing back to 
   the nightlife and down at the bottom, where it says 
   philnight.html, we could once again name that document.  And it's 
   oftentimes done in -- say for example in my own work, if I'm doing 
   some statistical analysis of computer crimes during a particular 
   period, I may preface a number of documents with the word -- with 
   the letters APR, indicating April, and 001, 002, et cetera, or 
   Week 1, Week 2, so I can identify specifically what those 
   documents relate to.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Before they go on?
   	THE WITNESS:  Before they -- as I create the document I then 
   create the title once I save it as well.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And is it possible to pick out or is there 
   some way in which you can say pick me out all documents that say 
   APR up in the header?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, there is.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay, thank you.
   	THE WITNESS:  You're welcome.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I'm sorry to interrupt, but if this is to 
   educate us I guess it has to come down to our level.
   	THE WITNESS:  My pleasure, your Honors.  Thank you.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Go ahead.
   	THE WITNESS:  What I'd like to do at this time is once again 
   scroll down the list by using the elevator on the right-hand side.  
   And having spent many childhood class trips, one of my favorite 
   spots downtown here is Elfreths Alley.  I can then select by 
   moving the mouse cursor over that particular area, and bringing 
   the Court's attention once again to the lower left-hand corner, 
   this is now a document called underscore elfreths.html, which 
   could indicate to the user the contents of this particular link 
   that I'm going to, this particular document.  I click that on one 
   time, it goes out and redraws the page for me, and very nicely 
   there is a beautiful photograph of one of my favorite spots, 
   Elfreths Alley.  Also a narrative related to Elfreths Alley as I 
   scroll down the scroll bar on -- the elevator bar on the right-
   hand side, giving some of the background of that particular 
   street.  And another link which is relative to, say, maybe a 
   visitor to the area that may not be that familiar with 
   Philadelphia in preparation of a trip out here and looking for 
   some information, I could then move the cursor over to the map of 
   Philadelphia, where it says right here toward the bottom, click 
   there one time.  And now I have gone out and retrieved this 
   document that is the map of the Philadelphia area for this 
   particular region.  And of course I believe the court is somewhere 
   over in this area where I'm pointing to now.  	Now, if I would 
   like, obviously it would be difficult if I was a traveler to carry 
   my computer with me, I can at this point by clicking on the right 
   mouse button, over this image with this particular browser, I can 
   then save this image onto my computer system to where later on I 
   could print it out on a printer, whether it's a nice color 
   printer, whether it's a black and white printer, I can actually 
   bring this image from the site where it is, bring it on my 
   computer so I can use it later on as a map to carry around with 
   me.  In this case I'm going to cancel that and go back.  And using 
   the back video control, the VCR control as I referred to earlier, 
   I can go back to the previous page and that's where we started 
   from a moment ago.  And I can go back one more time and there is 
   my selection list once again of items within the Philadelphia 
   historic district.
   	And for the last portion of this one I'd like to once again 
   go over and click at something of great interest, that's of course 
   Independence Hall.  The image is immediately drawn to the screen 
   and it gives you some of the history of Independence Hall as I 
   click through there.  Obviously, your Honors, if there is any 
   point if you'd like to have me stop and read this, I'd be more 
   than happy to.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I'm sorry, we didn't hear -- I didn't hear 
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, at any point if you'd like me to stop to 
   give you a chance to review the text.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  I think we're familiar with the area.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No -- yeah.
   	THE WITNESS:  Thank you, your Honors.  And also, once again, 
   it brings me down to where it has that same link to the map of 
   historic Philadelphia.  Should I have elected to select this page 
   other than Elfreths Alley first I still can select and go to the 
   map of historic Philadelphia and view that particular map again.  
   And by using the back arrow I can go back to the beginning of the 
   search engine here.  And I'm scrolling up fast, so nothing is 
   wrong with your monitor, I'm doing that rapidly.
   	At this time what I'd like to do, the Court has heard some 
   previous testimony about news groups and I'd like to go into some 
   of the news groups, show you what's in there.  And areas that are 
   non-sexually-explicit, just some graphic images that are currently 
   on some of the news groups.  Before I do that I'd like to point 
   out to the Court, if I may, that the information on this entire 
   Internet system as well as in particularly the news groups changes 
   dynamically.  So, some of the things that I may have found on 
   there within the past hour may have already been changed or 
   deleted by the people that control those news servers.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Independence Hall?
   	THE WITNESS:  Ma'am?
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Independence Hall?
   	THE WITNESS:  Independence Hall, they could conceivably have 
   renamed that and done something like that, yes --
   	THE WITNESS:  -- very simply.  In this case I'm going to use 
   another feature of the Netscape Browser, go up here to the 
   windows.  And it has the ability to display Usenet groups or news 
   groups with its own independent part of its computer system by 
   clicking on that, it will go out and connect to a news site.  I'm 
   going to bring this up full screen, so it's easy to read, by 
   clicking this one box over  here.  And this is the interface or 
   this is the part of the computer software that allows me to 
   interact between the user, the end user here at the keyboard and 
   the news groups.  One of the things I'd like to do is show that 
   right here is the news server that I'm connected to and that's the 
   server out there that has been provided by the Court for us to be 
   able to retrieve some of these news groups and information.  	So, 
   in order to go out there I'll go up and select the options menu... 
   identify to the server that I would like to see all of the news 
   groups that are out there... at which point it goes out, as you 
   can see, it appears, some different categories of news groups that 
   are available and their titles.  I also would like to go back up 
   to options and show all of the messages, because I do have the 
   option of showing all of the messages that are currently available 
   or only the ones that I have not read at this point.  That's a 
   matter of ease, because oftentimes there's literally hundreds and 
   hundreds of messages in a news group and you may read some at one 
   sitting, come back later on, the next day and read some more, so 
   you wouldn't have to go through all of the piles of already read 
   postings, just go to the ones that you already have not read.
   	At this point I clicked on "show all unread messages."  As 
   the Court can see, I can scroll down.  Some of the names of the 
   news groups are pretty identifiable, such as AZ Jobs, it would 
   indicate that's probably a news group related to Arizona jobs; BLT 
   Jobs, one would think that might be related to jobs in Baltimore.
   	THE WITNESS:  As you can see as I scroll through, there are 
   some things in there that might not identify specifically what's 
   in those news groups and one would actually have to go in those 
   news groups to see what they're about.  At this point, keeping 
   with our theme of Philadelphia, what I'd like to do is a little 
   bit more rapidly move down to one that I looked at.  There are 
   some sub-news groups of Pennsylvania, presumably Pittsburgh, and 
   in this particular instance Philadelphia.  Now, at this point, 
   unlike the previous documents up here, for example the one I have 
   referenced at AZ Jobs, presumably indicating Arizona jobs, these 
   have a plus sign out here, which indicate that there are further 
   subgroups within this group, as has been discussed with previous 
   testimony about some of the types of racing cars that one might be 
   interested in.  And it also indicates that under this group 
   there's 23 different groups that are available, and the way to get 
   that is very simply going over here to the file-folder-looking 
   area, clicking on that, and I'll raise that up to where that's 
   primarily what we see on the screen.  And you can see that there 
   is -- out of those 23 news groups there's these subcategories out 
   of here, and there's also some additional news groups as we see 
   out -- in this area here, there's a plus sign, and under 
   Philadelphia Jobs, there's two more subgroups underneath that.  
   We'll select the first one under "announce," if I may.
   	THE WITNESS:  And on the right-hand side of the screen now 
   indicates those postings which are currently available through 
   this one server, through these -- and on this news server and in 
   this particular subcategory of the news group of phl.announce.  
   Now, for example, one of the documents I looked at last night was 
   a pretty generic description of some of the previous court 
   proceedings in this matter that someone had written and posted on 
   here, and I printed that out.  Well, that's no longer on there, 
   that was about a -- a little over a two-week-old message, so 
   either on an automated manner or someone selected going out there, 
   they removed that message from this particular news group.  It 
   could have been the computer itself through like, as I said, an 
   automated matter, it says once something gets to be two weeks old 
   it automatically would remove it, or someone could have gone and 
   said, okay, these messages are old enough, I'm going to change it.
   	At this point I'll go to the next one and, for example, 
   something like the blood drive on March 26th, which presumably was 
   an announcement related to that.  I click there and underneath in 
   the bottom half of your screen is displayed that particular 
   message that someone has posted.  This one appears to be posted by 
   a person by the name of Monica Moll (ph.), and I apologize for not 
   pronouncing that properly, at a computer system address that this 
   person was using at Dolphin, apparently at the University of 
   Pennsylvania, as indicated by the edu or an educational site, and 
   it says underneath University of Pennsylvania.  And it talks about 
   just a message that indicates that there's an emergency blood 
   shortage, they need some assistance.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Could you back up just for a minute?  Now, 
   all someone needs to have this, is this correct, is a computer and 
   access to the Internet and a modem in the word processor or the 
   computer, right?
   	THE WITNESS:  A modem or a network connection of some sort, 
   which are very similar, your Honor, yes, and also the software by 
   which to view this, such as in this case we're using Netscape, 
   because Netscape can do a lot of different things.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And that's all, so that my little laptop 
   that's here that is -- that they did put it on Netscape just for 
   purposes of this case, no E-mail, but just -- if I could figure 
   out how to get it off and on, which I haven't been able to do 
   today, I could follow you on this with -- or anyone, any of the 
   judges or any of the lawyers could follow what you are doing, 
   anybody in the courtroom if they had a connection could follow 
   you, right?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honors, that's correct.  And 
   particularly if they're reading the information from the same 
   server that I'm reading it from it would be identical, absent the 
   fact that if someone was on there before and checked off a message 
   of being read, that message would not necessarily be displayed if 
   they've already read it.  So, there may be a little bit of a 
   difference between what I see and what you see had you been 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I see nothing, but that's all right at the 
   	THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, if you were to see it.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Yes, if I were to see it.
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So, as you can see those are different 
   announcements related presumably to the Philadelphia area and this 
   case was one related to an emergency blood shortage which might be 
   out there.
   	Okay, at this time, as I mentioned to the Court a few moments 
   ago, what I'd like to do is display a beautiful graphic image, in 
   this particular case I want to go back up to the news group alt.  
   Now, alt has been mentioned a few times in previous testimony, 
   which stands for an alternative news group, which basically is a 
   category which you can fit a lot of different subjects of 
   information in that particular news group.  I'm going to scroll up 
   there a little bit quicker...
   	THE WITNESS:  And as I mentioned before to the Court, in this 
   particular subcategory of news group, alt, it shows that there's 
   1,978 subcategories within this particular alt heading.  By double 
   clicking on this the folder opens up, which sort of indicates 
   opening up the drawer of a filing cabinet.  And as you can see as 
   I scroll down here, there's a number of different categories, 
   there's a number of subgroups that might be available in there, 
   and the one I'm moving down to is alt.pictures.  
   	THE WITNESS:  What I'll do to expedite this, your Honor, is 
   I'll just grab this elevator bar here and just move down a little 
   bit quicker, because there are quite a few out there, as you can 
   	THE WITNESS:  Oops, I beg your Honors' pardon, I was going to 
   go to alt.binaries, if I'm -- let me check my list here, I think I 
   got off -- yes, I did.  I was going to go to alt.binaries, which 
   has the subcategory of pictures.  Let me go back up --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Why would you pick that?
   	THE WITNESS:  Well, in this case I was out on the site last 
   night and looked at alt.binaries, because alt.binaries generally 
   refers to some of the graphic images or actual computer 
   applications that might be out there, because there's 
   subcategories that I know from using this, there's 
   alt.binaries.pictures, and then you have different subcategories 
   underneath there.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, does binaries have a sexual 
   connotation or --
   	THE WITNESS:  No, it doesn't, your Honor --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, it doesn't, okay.
   	THE WITNESS:  -- no, it's strictly a generic computer term.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Binary simply means two media, right, two or 
   more media?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, yes.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  All right.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  There, stop.
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay.  As you can see, the alt.binaries has 78 
   different groups in there, and I can double click on this and 
   bring me to the subcategories underneath alt.binaries.  And in 
   this case there is once again sub-subcategories, documents, 
   postings related to there, and I'm going to the one 
   alt.binaries.pictures, which has 47 subgroups underneath there.  
   And I'll double click on that, and of course the first one that 
   comes up is alt.binaries.pictures.animals.  And it says that 
   there's 69 unread postings in that particular news group and to 
   make sure that I have all the ones, since I looked at the duck one 
   earlier, I want to go back here and make sure that I show all 
   messages irrespective of whether or not I have read them, which I 
   have that selected, I click on this at this time.  And over on the 
   right-hand side of the screen there's all the different postings 
   there that are listed on this particular news group and a brief 
   subject line that the individual that posted this message has the 
   opportunity to post it under what category and actually type into 
   the line what it is that they want to identify this particular 
   posting to mean.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Now, "cute racoon," okay?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honors.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Now, presumably "Who knows," which is the 
   identifier there, has put a picture of a cute racoon, is that what 
   we're to believe?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's what it indicates, your Honors, yes.  If 
   your Honor would like I may -- I could select that and see if --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Sure, I like cute raccoons.
   	THE WITNESS:  I don't know that that's...
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  I don't know how cute he is.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Or she.
   	THE WITNESS:  What I'd like to do is go down the ones that I 
   know I --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Ducks, I like ducks.
   	THE WITNESS:  Ducks?  And go to the ducks.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  I think everyone agrees, that's a cute duck.
   	THE WITNESS:  And as you can see there are a number of 
   different postings on here --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  When you say it's posted or unread, does 
   that -- once you have looked at it does it become read?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor, it would be just 
   like marking -- putting a bookmark in a publication you were 
   reading that previous to here I have read this or you can select a 
   particular page, I would do it oftentimes by folding over the 
   corner, indicating to myself later on I read that page, this does 
   it electronically for you.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Now, Mr. Schmidt, just one thing I'm not 
   clear about, which is whoever put -- I guess this person put his 
   or her E-mail address, the person who put this photo of this cute 
   duck, I'm just looking at the top half of the screen there it 
   says, "ducks, ducks and more ducks," and to the left there it has 
   an E-mail address, do you see where you're showing with the 
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Now, that person, I assume -- let's assume 
   that's an actual person, how did he or she load this into the 
   system, this -- it's not a photograph of a duck, it's clearly a 
   drawing or a painting or --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Illustration.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  -- illustration that some human made of it, 
   not a photo, how did that get on there?
   	THE WITNESS:  What would happen, your Honor, in this 
   particular case this is a direct posting.  They could have 
   responded to an earlier posting, say someone said I would like to 
   see some pictures of ducks they have the opportunity, just like in 
   an E-mail system which we might be familiar with, to reply to that 
   particular posting and attach a file.  In this case they have 
   attached a file named duck1.jpb, which indicates that it's a 
   graphic image, and they have attached that to their E-mail.  And 
   this particular Browser does both, it allows you to read the 
   message or the E-mail in that case or the posting that was there 
   as well as displays the image for you at the same time, they would 
   just simply attach it.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  But -- perhaps I'm not clear -- how 
   physically, the person who posted this illustration of this duck, 
   how did he or she do that from -- let's assume it's a person that 
   is at his or her home, how is it done?
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay, they would go over there and select the 
   ability -- as you notice across the icons here across the top, 
   you'll see this one where it says "reply" --
   	THE WITNESS:  -- they would go, select reply, and I'll select 
   this particular document here, select reply.  And I have not 
   specified my E-mail address in there, which is why that error 
   message came up, but had I done that in configuring this 
   application it would pop up with a window and ask me to type in 
   the message that I would like to post to this board, and I would 
   type it in just like I was typing in any other document.  And then 
   it would also have the ability to attach, when I go to select to 
   send that response I would have the ability from that screen, 
   oftentimes it's represented by a paper clip, to attach a file.  In 
   this case conceivably there would be a file, this image residing 
   on my computer system somewhere, duck1.jpb, I can tell it to 
   attach it with that posting and then it sends it together through 
   the Internet.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, for example, if Judge Buckwalter 
   wanted to send Judge Dalzell something, Judge Buckwalter mentioned 
   to him, let's say, that, gee, I saw a great ad for some shoes that 
   you might like to see, how -- could he without anything except for 
   E-mail and Judge Dalzell without anything other than E-mail 
   communicate that to Judge Dalzell through this mechanism?
   	THE WITNESS:  Well -- and I use the term E-mail, because are 
   most familiar with that, but that's a one-to-one transmission, 
   this is available to numbers of people obviously.  And, yes, it 
   would be very similar, because you could just attach that 
   information, say an ad that you might have had scanned using a 
   scanner or something that was residing on your --
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  So, you would need a scanner, you would 
   need a scanner to scan the image that Judge Sloviter just 
   	THE WITNESS:  If it was an advertisement, as the Judge 
   mentioned, yes, you would need some way to get that off of a piece 
   of paper into your computer system if it didn't already exist 
   there as an image.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Or what would be maybe more true to life, 
   suppose Judge Dalzell is in -- well, Judge Buckwalter is in the 
   country and Judge Dalzell is in the city, and Judge Buckwalter 
   says there's a great -- I think we ought to read XYZ book next 
   time and there's a great review of it in this local paper, and 
   Judge Dalzell doesn't have the local paper, could -- how easy 
   would it be for Judge Buckwalter to transmit that to Judge Dalzell 
   and how much sophistication does he need -- more than I have, but 
   how much sophistication does he need to be able to do that?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yeah, it would take a bit of understanding 
   about the way the computer systems work.  You would need to 
   understand, for example, taking it from a newspaper if it was, 
   say, a number -- a three or four-paragraph review, you would of 
   course have to clip it out if it didn't fit into a -- if you had a 
   small hand scanner, clip it out so it would fit into that 
   particular size, scan it into your computer system by -- once 
   again, in most cases, by clicking on an icon that indicates scan.  
   You would click it in there, have to save it as a file, and then 
   attach that file as well.  So, you would have to pretty well know 
   what you were doing to attach a file to an E-mail message like 
   that or to a posting.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.
   	THE WITNESS:  You're welcome, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  That's very helpful.
   	THE WITNESS:  And as you can see, your Honors, there's a 
   couple more photographs, at least this appears it could be a 
   photograph here of a duck...
   	THE WITNESS:  And there's this last one, which I think was 
   one of the more beautiful ones.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Nice ducks.
   	THE WITNESS:  I also like ducks.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  All right, I think we've seen enough cute 
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay.  What I'd like to do, your Honors, with 
   your permission of course, is to -- my next part of the 
   demonstration what I'd like to do is do some of the demonstrations 
   related to some of the items that I have prepared in my 
   declaration.  And I would advise the Court at this time, some of 
   them do contain some things that are sexually explicit, and if the 
   Court would like I can show you some of the steps I took to 
   achieve some of these documents.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I think you should be able to show us how 
   you get to it, how --
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.  In this case, once again 
   using --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I assume that there's no objection to him 
   showing us how he gets to those materials, before he shows us the 
   	MS. HEINS:  We have stated an objection in our conference 
   call with Judge Dalzell earlier in the week both on the basis of 
   the motion in limine argument --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Are you on the mike?
   	MS. HEINS:  I'm sorry.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, you can come -- you can come just --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Just turn that mike a little bit and it will 
   pick you up.
   	MS. HEINS:  In our conference call earlier this week with 
   Judge Dalzell we stated an objection to the live demonstration on 
   two grounds; one of them is to the extent it's hard-core 
   pornography and could be prosecuted under obscenity laws, it's not 
   relevant here; and the second is simply that our understanding was 
   that all direct testimony other than the Surfwatch demonstration 
   was going to be by affidavit and not by live demonstration.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, you had a demonstration and obviously 
   it is relevant for the panel and to make a record as to the 
   facility with which someone relatively unsophisticated, under 18, 
   can reach the material, before we get to the material itself we 
   may want to see, but certainly we will not stop him from -- it's 
   the defendants' case to show that it's easy.  I'm proceeding on 
   the assumption that a child can do it, I can't, but that's all 
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Your Honor, I just would indicate, I would 
   ask the witness to advise the Court before he actually clicked on 
   the image if you didn't want him to and also to cite the exhibit 
   in his book as to the image he's going to click on.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Oh, oh, well, that would be very helpful -
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  That's fine.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  -- that would be very helpful --
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  He will do that before he --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  -- Mr. Coppolino.  Thank you --
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  -- clicks it on, he'll get you that link.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  -- that's a very constructive suggestion.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you, Mr. Coppolino.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Go ahead.  
   	THE WITNESS:  In this case I'm going to go back to the A to Z 
   home page, which is actually where I started the previous search 
   on the courts in Philadelphia from.  If the Court will notice, on 
   this page here --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Let me say for the record, I assume that 
   when you show us the facility with which one can read this, the 
   same facility would be relevant whether the material was obscene, 
   clearly obscene as some of this is, or was arguably -- fell within 
   the categories of the statute, i.e. indecent.  So, the actual 
   demonstration of how one gets to it is clearly relevant.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Oh, absolutely, yes.
   	THE WITNESS:  In this case, if your Honors remember, I 
   started out by going to the Netsearch icon on the Web Browser up 
   here.  And by going to that area, if the Court remembers, I was 
   able to either search directly up here or go to some of the other 
   search routines that are available.  For the purpose of my 
   declaration one of the search routines I used was the Yahoo search 
   engine, at which point I'd like to click on the word Yahoo.  
   	THE WITNESS:  And provided that site is up and running it 
   should go out and brings me to the Yahoo screen here.  Now, this 
   is very similar to what we just saw moments ago by clicking on 
   Netsearch.  Netsearch, as many of the search routines do, give you 
   the capability of not only using that particular search program, 
   but also give you the ability to use other search programs, 
   because each one of them handles the way they compile their data 
   differently.  I believe in previous testimony it was discussed 
   about some of them have computer robots that go out there and 
   compile the data, some of them do, you know, human input, and some 
   of them do a combination of the two.  So, you would get different 
   search results using different search engines.  In this case Yahoo 
   is one of the more popular ones, which is what I have used.  Also 
   if you notice under Yahoo, there's a little line here that states 
   options, by selecting options I can delineate in some form or 
   fashion some of the search routines I'm doing.  For example, I can 
   search everything within Yahoo, I could search the different 
   Usenet groups, I could search different E-mail addresses.  I can 
   search certain delimiters such as at least one of the keys that 
   are -- the search phrase as I use it or all of the keys, that it 
   must appear in both of it, and also whether they have to be a part 
   of a word or complete words, I can delineate in certain areas some 
   of my search routines.  In this case I'm asking for it to display 
   25 searches at a time on the screen.  There may be a number of 
   results of the searches, but in this case I would only like to see 
   25 at a time.
   	And pointing the Court to... I believe it's Exhibit 2 in my 
   declaration.  Now, what I did to obtain this document in Exhibit 
   2, I just typed in the three characters XXX into this window down 
   here --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  How did you know to do that, did it tell 
   	THE WITNESS:  No, your Honors, no, that was just from my own 
   experience --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  You just made it up?
   	THE WITNESS:  Not just made up, I did it because I -- from my 
   experience in doing these type of investigations this is one of 
   the things that would generally give me listings of sexually-
   explicit materials.
   	THE WITNESS:  And what I'll --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And is that general known, from your 
   expertise is that -- is it generally known that anybody who was 
   looking for this kind of material would know to put in XXX?
   	THE WITNESS:  To the extent that triple X-rated material --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  They will now, but go ahead.
   	THE WITNESS:  I'm educating a broader audience, your Honor?
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Yes, but go ahead.
   	THE WITNESS:  To the extent that one searching for, as you'll 
   see in a moment in the search, anything -- to the extent that 
   someone would know XXX is something related to sexually-explicit 
   information or the fact that the word sex or porn, to the extent 
   -- that would be seem to be a reasonable answer, yes.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  It would be fair to say, would it, that it 
   is as well known to people who use this media as X-rated films are 
   to people who go to films?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, I believe that would be fair 
   to say.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay, that's...
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay.  At this point, your Honors, by typing in 
   the search string that I'm looking for, I click on the word search 
   over here with one click of the mouse, and immediately you can see 
   there's some search results.  I'll point out a couple things on 
   the screen as it also appears similarly in my declaration -- I say 
   similarly, because if you'll notice on the declaration, on Exhibit 
   2, it says there that there's 112 matches found, in this case 
   there's 120.  So, evidently there have been some additional sites 
   that have been added since I did this initial search which contain 
   the characters XXX.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Including, for the record, Superbowl Roman 
   numeral 30.
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Is that the one that just was?  I mean, is 
   that a current Superbowl, I mean, is that the last one?
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  That's the last one, wasn't it?
   	THE WITNESS:  I believe so, your Honor.
   	THE WITNESS:  And, as the Court pointed out as I was about 
   to, the first listing that it comes up hitting on is under a 
   category of recreation, sports and football, Superbowl XXX or 
   Superbowl 30.  And I could click just by going to anywhere along 
   this line here, as I did in the previous demonstration, to the 
   site that's associated with this.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Now, Mr. Schmidt, let's go back to my other 
   question.  I don't see XXX, unless it's very small, in either the 
   header where it says location or the -- let's call it the footer 
   for this purpose, down at the bottom -- is it there?
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  There it is.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, that says football.
   	THE WITNESS:  The reason -- your Honors, if I may, the reason 
   you see that at the bottom at this time is because I have the 
   pointer over that particular site, if I move it away from there 
   you'll notice that will go away and the words "document done" will 
   appear.  That's just showing that's the name of the link that this 
   is going to.  And in this particular instance for the Superbowl 
   the XXX or the 30, Roman numeral 30, appears within the naming 
   convention that someone has elected to name this document that 
   they have chosen to put in there.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But if you're looking for XXX there would be 
   no way in which -- if I have the same computer in another room and 
   I were a parent I wouldn't be able to know, you're saying, that 
   you're looking at XXX, you, my child, are looking at XXX material, 
   could I?
   	THE WITNESS:  Well, there's a couple things that would clue 
   you in, your Honor.  One of the first things you'll notice up here 
   under the search results, it indicates that I have found 120 
   matches containing the characters XXX.  So, if I was to look at 
   the screen I could see, yes, that's what the search was that I had 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I'm sorry, I had just -- I'm just trying to 
   understand another point that's going to -- that may or may not 
   come later, and I had understood that it would be possible at all 
   times to see what you were viewing or at least it would reveal it, 
   and you're saying it really doesn't reveal it, is that right?
   	THE WITNESS:  I'm still not quite sure I understand what your 
   Honor means by revealing it at what time.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  That the URL is displayed.
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay, yes.  In the display of the URL, for 
   example, we'll go down here to this particular one under arts and 
   humanities literature, published fiction, adult fiction, if you'll 
   notice on the footers as you have pointed out, your Honor, that 
   particular title contains nowhere near the words XXX.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  That's right.
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct.  And in this particular search 
   routine, what this has responded to is the fact in the narrative, 
   somewhere in the description that someone has put on the Yahoo 
   search engine, it contains something related to XXX that the 
   computer itself has interpreted by seeing it somewhere within that 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But, as an expert, would it be possible as 
   far as you know that any time you ask for XXX -- this may be a 
   very unsophisticated question, but would it be possible any time 
   that you display an XXX material or ask for XXX material it 
   immediately has to show on the location, or is that just not in 
   the technology?
   	THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor, it's very much so, because you 
   can put whatever words or characters you want in the naming 
   convention, as we discussed earlier, I believe it was your earlier 
   question about who decides how these things get named, these items 
   get named, that is the individual that actually creates that item, 
   they determine what name they want to put in there.  For example, 
   if I -- what I have elected in this particular document, instead 
   of using the word adult underscore fiction, to type in XXX 
   underscore fiction, I could elect to do that and using that naming 
   convention through anything out -- just as I did with the APR for 
   April, and that would always appear in that URL address, as the 
   Judge mentioned.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But it's your option, in other words?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honors, yes.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And it's not the option of anyone higher up 
   on the scale of getting into the document?
   	THE WITNESS:  You as the creator of that document would be 
   the one that determines the name of that document.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   	Okay, as you can see, your Honors, in addition to the 
   Superbowl XXX category that's being displayed there, and I'll 
   scroll up just below that, so you may see some of the rest of 
   them, as much as we can get on the screen at one time, there's -- 
   once again, it relates to the Host Marriott gamewear, some 
   Superbowl XXX hats and T-shirts.  Someone has elected in their 
   description of that particular Website to include the XXX, which 
   indicates the 30, that this appears in that description of that 
   site, so that's why the Yahoo search engine picked up and 
   displayed this text.
   	The next one down in the subcategory of business and economy, 
   the XXX adult software, et cetera.  As you can see, your Honors, 
   you have a large selection out of the first 25.  And 
   notwithstanding the blue links, which are actually the links to 
   the sites that are associated with this information, in the 
   narrative side, going down the right-hand side in the black text, 
   you can see why this particular search routine selected on the XXX 
   even though, if you'll notice, as I go over One Superhot Adult 
   Mall, in the lower left-hand, the footers you would call it, the 
   characters XXX do not appear in that name, because someone has 
   elected not to use that title.
   	Now, continuing on, if I may, your Honors, with the 
   information as it is contained in my declaration.  I'd like to go 
   down to the link here --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Would anybody have the authority, as far as 
   you know -- I'm not talking about legal authority, but technical 
   ability to require that any material that goes on or is found 
   through a Yahoo search must accurately designate with XXX or adult 
   or whatever designation might be used to access this kind of 
   	THE WITNESS:  The descriptions, your Honor, that are 
   associated with this are put in -- for example, I have my own 
   Website, I can list that as a Yahoo site and I -- I elect to type 
   into the description whatever characters I elect to describe my 
   Website.  So, in -- yes, you could go in there and type XXX on 
   every site that's related to this if you put that description in 
   the search engine itself.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay, thank you.
   	THE WITNESS:  You're welcome, your Honor.  And going down 
   here, which is reference to Exhibit 3 in my declaration, I'll 
   click on Las Vegas showgirls and it has a description alongside 
   there... it's going out and reading that document.
   	THE WITNESS:  And this document is being displayed, as it was 
   very similar to the day on April the 3rd when I printed this 
   document for my declaration.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Just for the record, this is the page that is 
   headed "WARNING, WARNING, WARNING," in all caps.
   	THE WITNESS:  And as you can see by some of the black text it 
   has the warnings, as the Judge pointed out.  It also has a 
   statement in here, it says if you're under the age of 18 or 
   offended by adult-oriented material you are not authorized to 
   access this site.  It also has, down below you'll notice it has a 
   direct link, if you watch the cursors I place it over, a direct 
   link to the Surfwatch home page, which I believe we saw a 
   demonstration of a few weeks ago, or moving down below that it 
   also has a direct link to the Cyberpatrol home page.  So --
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  Now, at this point you're not going to 
   display the picture though that's already in our exhibit book?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  You're not going to, okay.
   	THE WITNESS:  At this point I'm not prepared to do that.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  Very well.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  That's the next click, right?
   	THE WITNESS:  That would be the case, your Honor.  At this 
   point, if I elected to do so and if the Court so chose, I could go 
   up here to where it says, yes, I am over 18 years old, which I am, 
   and I could click on this.  And as you can see down in the lower 
   left-hand corner again is the footer, that would then connect me 
   to a site called www.sexvision.com/main.htm.  And main.htm is 
   actually the name of the document that this would then connect to, 
   which would be the one in the next page of my declaration.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And we would know that and it's identified 
   because on the right-hand side of the -- right-hand top side of 
   the document itself it has precisely what you just read?
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  It has the Website address?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.  Netscape, when I print this 
   up, puts that information in there for you, which is very good for 
   tracking where these things --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  And that's why it's on the exhibits that you 
   all prepared for us?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honors, yes.  Netscape did 
   that automatically, put all that information --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, you didn't have to do anything to make 
   it do that?
   	THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor, it did that automatically with 
   the date and time, the description as the site user has placed in 
   there, for example, in the upper left-hand corner of the second 
   part of that exhibit, which actually has the graphic image, it 
   says, "Sex vision.  Sexy live nude adult video teleconferencing."  
   That's actually put on there by reading it from the site, those 
   are not things that I typed on there.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And that is obscene, is it not, that picture 
   is obscene?
   	THE WITNESS:  That would be something -- a determination for 
   the Court, your Honors.  It does display some sexually-explicit 
   materials you can see on the next page or, if the Court would 
   like, I could click over there.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, you don't have to click on there, 
   we've seen it.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Because we -- because if you clicked we would 
   have Exhibit 3, right?
   	THE WITNESS:  You would have the second page --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  The second page of --
   	THE WITNESS:  -- of Exhibit 3.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  -- Exhibit 3?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, so we don't need to do that.
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay.  At this point, your Honors, if I may, 
   I'd like to go back for a moment to the search --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  How many -- all right, well, you'll tell us 
   later how many clicks it took you to get to that.
   	THE WITNESS:  I may answer that question right now, if you'd 
   like, your Honor, because it's --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, I think it's part of your direct test 
   -- your testimony, so I'll wait, you'll get cross-examined on 
   that.  Go ahead, you do what you want.
   	THE WITNESS:  Thank you, your Honor.  Okay, at this time, 
   your Honor, what I'd like to do is go back to the search results 
   that we started from a moment ago.  As you can see the fact that I 
   went to the Las Vegas showgirls, that text is a little bit 
   different color and that's something that I set up within the Web 
   Browser myself.  So, if I was doing some research for something 
   and accessed a hundred links I could go back, instead of having to 
   remember or write down which one I went to, I could just go back 
   and see the fact by the different color that I had already been at 
   that link, that's one of the features built into the browser.
   	In this instance what I'd like to do is go to the next 25 
   matches, which relate to Exhibit Number 10 in my declaration.  And 
   as you can see, your Honors, there is -- it says it's displaying 
   matches 26 through 50 and I will scroll up to see all of the 
   different choices I have of the search results there.  So, I have 
   clicked from the search, the next 25 over to here with one click.  
   Now, going on to -- that was Exhibit 10, your Honors.  Going on to 
   Exhibit 11, which I am not going to click to --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Right.
   	THE WITNESS:  -- I can go down here to the selection, the 
   Honey.  And once again, your Honors, pointing to your earlier 
   question, on the lower left-hand or the footer, so to speak, it 
   now says down there www.bolero.com, that's because I have the 
   pointer over that site called the Honey.  I'd like to bring the 
   Court's attention, if I may, to the fact that you had mentioned 
   earlier about the Website address on the upper right-hand corner 
   of my document in the declaration, which says WWW.APPEALO.COM 
   (ph.).  At some point since I was at that site they have changed 
   the link to a new domain name, instead of appealo it's now bolero, 
   and that's been since -- April the 3rd is when I prepared that 
   document for my declaration and now it's changed to another site 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Mr. Schmidt, to get the hard copy did you 
   simply print?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, I would --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I mean, to prepare the exhibits, if somebody 
   wanted to see one of these pictures and then get a hard copy as 
   you have given us would they just print or it doesn't work that 
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honors.  For example, the information 
   we have currently displayed on our screen, the results of the 
   Websearch --
   	THE WITNESS:  -- all I would have to do is to print that out 
   as I have for my declaration, is go up here to where it says 
   print, this little icon right here --
   	THE WITNESS:  -- select print by clicking the mouse once.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Yeah, well, like you do in a word processor.
   	THE WITNESS:  Exactly, your Honors, exactly.  And it would 
   come up with a print window and ask me if I wanted to print and 
   what printer I would like to use if I had more than one printer 
   selected.  And that's the way I have prepared the rest of the 
   document, I would click -- say, for example, if I were to click to 
   the Honey for the purpose of the Court, then I could -- when said 
   image is displayed on my screen I could go up to the print icon 
   and then print that -- print that image just as it appears in the 
   	Now, in preparation for my demonstration, in reviewing this, 
   the image that currently is in my declaration under Exhibit Number 
   11 no longer exists, not only is that same site not the name off 
   of the site, the Honey, but the image itself is not the same.  As 
   I viewed it last night, there are now some blue splotches on 
   appropriate places on the image that would effectively cover up 
   certain portions of that image now that are currently on that 
   	If your Honors like, I would continue on.  And what I'll do 
   is go to another match and this is related to Exhibit 37.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Your Honor, if I may --
   	THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. Coppolino?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  -- the revision of the image he just referred 
   to is also that Exhibit 50, that image, the Honey, we have the 
   revised image.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, Exhibit 37.
   	THE WITNESS:  And what I have done is I have clicked on the 
   next 25 sites, indicating up at the top -- I haven't done that 
   yet, have I?  I've clicked on the next, which indicate matches 51 
   through 75.  And the Court will notice the -- let me make sure 
   I've got this exhibit correct -- I'm sorry, your Honors, it's -- 
   Exhibit 37 is the search results, which is not the same as what I 
   currently have on the screen once again, because I mentioned 
   earlier that the number of sites have increased since I initially 
   did the search, so, therefore, the page numbering system is 
   changed over.  So, in this case I'll actually have to go to the 
   next 25 matches... displaying 76 to 100, to get to the areas as I 
   have noticed in my declaration in Exhibit Number 38, which is the 
   BBS portion, the bulletin board system portion of the search 
   results.  The document in my declaration at Exhibit Number 38 is 
   the Website from the Southshore Secrets BBS.  And, once again, the 
   Court may take notice at the lower left-hand corner, that's the 
   name of the site that this particular Southshore Secret BBS link 
   is linked to.
   	Now, your Honors, I'd like to go ahead and click to this next 
   site.  As of last night it did not contain any sexually-explicit 
   material in the next click, but I'll warn the Court, sometimes 
   these things change and --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Why do you have to click to it?  I mean --
   	THE WITNESS:  Because what happens on the next page, your 
   Honor, since I originally printed this document for the 
   declaration, they have changed the name of the location of this 
   site.  So, what they have done, and with the Court's permission --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, I don't know, let me...
   	(Discussion held off the record.)
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Mr. Coppolino, what is the point of -- what 
   is the point he's trying to show by this specific point?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  This is the last example, but I believe the 
   next click will show that the particular site name changed and the 
   screen -- the next screen will show that it changed and it will 
   give you the hypertext link to the new site.  So, it shows the 
   Court, A, that they can change the name of the site itself and, B, 
   that you can click on and get to it after they change the name, 
   that's what the next screen would show.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Isn't that what he just showed us with his 
   prior testimony when he had a different name --
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Very similar to that, exactly.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  -- and then they put the two black dots?
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  So, when you click on this is there going to 
   be that same picture or is there just going to be text?
   	THE WITNESS:  No, your Honors, it will just be text, 
   presumably, as what I saw last night was strictly just text.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  I'd like to see it, thank you, I'd like to 
   see it.
   	THE WITNESS:  Okay, clicking on here... and it indicates that 
   this site has been moved from what I have -- the site location was 
   included in my declaration, it also provides the link to the new 
   site, which is a different URL address than the previous one, a 
   different name included in there.  And the reason being, it's 
   stated by whomever put this page on there that due to overwhelming 
   response the site has been moved to its own Webserver, it's own 
   computer system.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Does that statement, based on your 
   experience, does that statement, A, make sense; B, strike you as 
   	THE WITNESS:  Very much so, your Honor, yes.  That's one 
   where one would -- in order for its users or its fans, so to 
   speak, to be able to follow the links they put that on there and 
   it says, okay, here's -- I'm no longer at this location, here's 
   where I am now, click here to go to it.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  And that's because the new server can take 
   more traffic, if you will?
   	THE WITNESS:  Apparently, based on the way it appears here, 
   yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, fine, that's interesting.
   	THE WITNESS:  Then if I were to --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And that would be true as to anything?  For 
   example, if all of a sudden an event was coming to Philadelphia, 
   going back to what you had said before, which got a lot of 
   traffic, people wanted to know whether tickets were available, is 
   it that kind of site also that they would move to a --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  A server with more capacity?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honors, that's quite correct, but if 
   I may explain.  What one may find out that we have -- for example, 
   the Federal Judicial Center may have a lot of different Websites 
   on that one particular server and through the course of the day 
   are being accessed, they elect at one point to put something else.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, they would be delighted, but I would 
   be surprised, there might be other things.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  No, but you're -- but to follow your example 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  The point is --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  -- to follow your example, if their Website 
   on court-annexed arbitration, a subject near and dear to this 
   Court, that there was so much traffic on it that they moved that 
   to a new server because they were getting so many requests at the 
   same time, is that what you're saying is happening here?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay.  So, it's just reflecting demand?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's -- the demand, your Honor, yes, and also 
   the ability to meet that demand without the hesitation and delays 
   that we have seen through some of the sites once they get real 
   busy, it may slow down the traffic.  So, you move it off to where 
   there is only a singular function on there instead of multiple 
   people coming in.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, very helpful --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  -- thank you.  
   	THE WITNESS:  And if I --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Did you say that was it on the demonstration?  
   I'm sorry.
   	THE WITNESS:  Just to conclude, your Honor, if I were to 
   click on that site there then it would be the -- go to the page 
   that's --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Then we would see Exhibit 38 for 
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, that's correct.
   	At this time, that would conclude the formal demonstration, 
   your Honors, and I would be happy to entertain any questions you 
   might have.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, I think at this point --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, I think there is cross-examination 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But it might be a good point to break.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Yes, yes.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay, we'll take a five-minute break -- is 
   that what we've been taking?
   	(Court in recess; 10:54 to 11:08 a.m.)
   	THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, I think we're ready for cross-
   BY MS. HEINS:  
   Q   Good morning, Mr. Schmidt.
   A   Good morning again.
   Q   Nice to see you again.
   A   Nice to see you, thank you.
   Q   Mr. Schmidt, you are highly expert in the use of computers, 
   are you not?
   A   Yes, I am.
   Q   And you've, over the years of your law enforcement career, 
   you've engaged in many different sophisticated computer searches 
   for pornographic materials?
   A   Yes, I have.
   Q   So that it's fair to say you can get around the Internet 
   pretty quickly?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Now, the materials, the large stack of materials that you 
   supplied to the Court today, you accessed some of these materials 
   originally on a home computer, is that right?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And this was a 60 megahertz pentium-based computer that you 
   built yourself?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And in fact this is one of approximately ten computers that 
   you have in your home, is that right?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Now, a pentium base is a state-of-the-art, most advanced 
   computer system available, is it not?
   A   Depending upon the speed, pentium is the most recent series.  
   The speed of mine is not the state of the art.
   Q   Can you explain what you mean by the speed?
   A   Yes, I can.  I mentioned or you mentioned there or the 
   question was about a 60 megahertz which relates to the clock speed 
   of the central processing unit or the computer itself.  Currently 
   under the pentium series of chips that's produced by Intel 
   Corporation they go as high as up to 200 megahertz which are 
   significantly faster processing computers.
   Q   And does faster processing mean that you would be able to call 
   up an image faster once you click on your screen?
   A   That would be one part of it, yes.
   Q   Are there also computers which have much slower than 60 
   megahertz processing?
   A   Yes, there are.
   Q   And some of  the images that you supplied to the Court today 
   you also accessed on a computer at your work site at Boeing Air 
   Force Base?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And what's the speed of that computer?
   A   That particular computer is a 486 DX-100 which is the previous 
   series of central processing unit chips.
   Q   And in comparison to the 60 megahertz that you have at home, 
   what's the memory of that computer at work?
   A   The one at work has 16 megabyte of memory in it which is the 
   same as I have in my system at home.
   Q   Now, when you first start working on finding pornographic 
   images for this case you also brought a brand new color laser 
   printer for home use, isn't that right?
   A   No, it's not.
   Q   Didn't you buy a brand new color laser printer on the day that 
   you started searching for pornographic pictures in this case?
   A   No, I did not.
   Q   When did you -- okay, what -- what laser printer did you use 
   at home to print out some of the pictures when you began 
   investigating pornography on the Internet for purposes of this 
   A   I did not use a laser printer at home, I use an ink jet 
    	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Is a laser printer color or is it just 
   the ink jet printer that's color?
   	THE WITNESS:  Both of them could be either black and white or 
   color, your Honor.
   BY MS. HEINS:  
   Q   Okay, you bought on the day you began working on the 
   investigation in this case you bought a Canon 610 color printer?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And that's an ink jet and a laser printer?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  And one of the purposes of that purpose was to print 
   out pictures in connection with this case, isn't that right?
   A   Yes, it was.
   Q   Now, at work you also printed out some pictures that have been 
   supplied to this Court as exhibits, is that right?
   A   Yes.
   Q   And your color printer at work is a laser printer, is it not?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   It's a QMS LX color laser printer, correct?
   A   Yeah.
   Q   And that printer is even more elaborate than the new printer 
   you bought for home use for purposes of this case, isn't that 
   A   Yes, that's correct.
   Q   Now, the time it takes to print out an image varies with the 
   speed of the printer, does it not?
   A   That's one of the factors, yes.
   Q   And not everybody, it's fair to say, has a QMS LX color laser 
   printer in their home, do they?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Now, you also used, I think you told me at your deposition a 
   28.8 baud modem with your computer in order to call up sites on 
   the Internet?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And this is a state-of-the-art speed modem, is it not?
   A   To the extent that it's -- the speed of it is state of the 
   art, yes.
   Q   And there are similar modems in existence, are there not?
   A   Yes, there are.
   Q   For example if you had used a 14 baud modem it would take 
   longer for an image to appear on the screen?
   A   That would be correct, yes.
   Q   And if you used a nine baud modem it would be even slower, 
   wouldn't it?
   A   I'm not familiar with the term a nine baud modem.
   Q   Are there modems slower than 14 baud?
   A   Yes, there are, 14.4, yes.
   Q   If you used one slower than 14 baud would the image appear on 
   the screen more slowly?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Do you have any knowledge of how many homes in the United 
   States that have computers have 28.8 baud modems as opposed to 
   slower ones?
   A   No, I don't. 
   Q   Have any knowledge of how many homes in the U.S. have QHS-LX 
   color laser printers?
   A   No, I don't.
   Q   Now, of course, you also need a Webbrowser such as NetScape to 
   find the Web sites that you've demonstrated to the Court, don't 
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   You also need at least one search engine such as Yahoo or 
   A   Access to one of those search engines, yes.
   Q   So without a Webbrowser you couldn't find any of the sites 
   that you've demonstrated, any of the Web sites?
   A   That would be fundamentally correct, yes.
   Q   And without at least one search engine you also would have a 
   very hard time finding Web sites whether pornographic or any other 
   A   It would make it more difficult, yes.
   Q   Do you have any idea how many homes that have computers in the 
   United States have Webbrowsers?
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   Have any idea how many of them have search engines?
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   Now, some computers don't even have sufficient memory to tell 
   a printer to print an image at all, do they?
   A   That would be correct, yes.
   Q   Do you have any idea how many homes in the United States have 
   computers with sufficient memory to tell a printer to print?
   A   No, I -- no, I don't.
   Q   Now, every time you make a connection on the Internet to a 
   different site it can take minutes as opposed to just seconds to 
   access that site, to actually call it up on the screen, depending 
   on modem speed and how busy the Internet is, among other factors, 
   isn't that right?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   By the way, in the course of your searches you accessed a 
   number of sites that had an overseas as opposed to a domestic 
   United States origin, didn't you?
   A   Yes, I did.
   Q   But you can't quantify the percentage of pornographic sites 
   that you accessed -- or let me rephrase that.  You can't quantify 
   the percentage of pornographic sites on the Internet that have 
   overseas origins, can you?
   A   No, I cannot, no. 
   	MS. HEINS:  Excuse me, pagination problem.
   BY MS. HEINS:  
   Q   Now, Mr. Schmidt, your expertise is in computer forensics, is 
   it not?
   A   That's one of the areas, yes.
   Q   And that includes, for example, securing computer documents 
   during criminal investigations?
   A   That's correct.
   Q   It includes finding files that may be disguised somewhere in 
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   It includes the ability to extract files, to extract documents 
   from computer files without their being altered?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Now, you've claimed some expertise in your declaration as to 
   the, quote, "widespread," unquote, availability of what you 
   described as sexually explicit sites on the Internet, correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   By the way, by sexually explicit sites are you really 
   referring to pornographic sites as opposed to other types of 
   sexually explicit information such as safer sex information or 
   sexually explicit descriptions that may appear in literature?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Your Honor, I object to the question as 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  You can answer.
   	THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, what was the question, please?
   BY MS. HEINS:  
   Q   When you talk in your declaration about sexually explicit 
   sites you really mean that sub-category of sexually explicit sites 
   that are pornographic in nature, don't you?
   A   The category I referred to was the entire gamut, I believe, of 
   sexually explicit graphic material that was out there.
   Q   Well, what I'm asking you is wasn't your search really 
   confined to the sub-category of pornographic material, adult sites 
   A   Adult sites, yes.
   Q   Okay.  Now, you haven't conducted any formal studies, have 
   you, of the amount of pornographic or adult material that's 
   available on line?
   A   No, I haven't.
   Q   And you can't quantify what the percentage of that material is 
   in relation to the entire spectrum of content on the Internet, can 
   A   No, I cannot.
   Q   And the opinion you express in your declaration that the 
   number of what you call sexually explicit sites are growing is not 
   based on any quantitative analysis, is it?
   A   No, it's not.
   Q   It's really just your impression, isn't it?
   A   No, it's my experience, not an impression.
   Q   Now, your experience is based on being a law enforcement 
   officer investigating sexually explicit materials that might  be 
   illegal, isn't that right?
   A   My experience involving that type of thing is one part of it, 
   Q   Okay.  And in this case when you were conducting your search, 
   for the most part you typed in key words that you knew were going 
   to lead you to adult sites, didn't you?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   You were not looking for other sexually explicit sites, for 
   example, that might concern safer sex, were you?
   A   No, I was not.
   Q   You were not looking for sites that might have sexually 
   explicit material relating to reproduction --
   A   No, I was not.
   Q   -- birth control?
   A   No, I was not.
   Q   And in fact you didn't even look for sites that might contain 
   one of the seven -- the seven dirty words which you understand to 
   be the basis of the Federal Communications Commission's indecency 
   definition, did you?
   A   That's correct, I did not.
   Q   Now, Mr. Schmidt, on Page 4 of your declaration you say you 
   believe you are qualified to offer expert opinion on, among other 
   things, the existence of mechanisms that are being offered by 
   certain Web sites to restrict access by minors.  That's on Page 4 
   of your declaration, Paragraph 5, Subparagraph Roman numeral IV.
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And you maintain you are an expert on the subject of existence 
   of mechanisms offered by certain Web sites to restrict access by 
   A   To the extent that they exist, yes.
   Q   In fact, your knowledge of these mechanisms, these adult 
   identification or screening mechanisms is limited to what you've 
   read on Webpages, isn't it?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   In fact you don't know if so-called adult verification, that's 
   a term that's reflected in some of your exhibits, is different 
   from a system of user ID password or the so-called First Virtual 
   system; you don't know if they're all different or if they're in 
   fact the same thing, do you?
   A   That's correct, I do not know that.
   Q   And you have no knowledge of what software is involved with 
   any of these systems, adult verification or First Virtual, 
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And as to credit card verification, your knowledge of how that 
   works is limited to what you've picked up perusing Web sites, 
   isn't that right?
   A   That plus experience in previous investigations in bulletin 
   board systems and people requiring credit card access for those.
   Q   You have no knowledge of the cost that would be involved in 
   instituting a credit card verification system, do you?
   A   No, I don't.
   Q   You don't know whether it's possible, whether it's even 
   possible to institute such a system if there's no financial 
   transaction taking place, do you?
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   And you don't really know what the First Virtual is, do you?
   A   Other than what I've read, no.
   Q   And what you've read has been limited to the Web site screens 
   that you showed us in your exhibits?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   The most in fact that you can say about First Virtual 
is that you think it appears to be a service that's a sort of 
   verification of authenticity, is that right?
   A   That's based on reading what's on the screen, yes.
   Q   And you've never talked with any person involved with any of 
   the adult sites that you've visited that uses an adult 
   verification system to find out how they manage that system, have 
   A   No, I did not.
   Q   And you have no knowledge of whether any adult verification 
   system that you've mentioned in your declaration is usable outside 
   the context of Web sites or bulletin boards, for example, whether 
   it would be usable for news groups, do you?
   A   That's correct.
   Q   You don't know whether any of these adult verification systems 
   would be usable for list exploders, do you?
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   Mail exploders, excuse me, or list serves, and you don't know 
   whether any adult verification system would be usable or feasible 
   for on-line chat rooms, do you?
   A   That's correct, I do not.
   Q   And you have no idea whether any of these adult verification 
   systems would be feasible for nonprofit organizations that run 
   largely or totally on volunteer labor, do you?
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   Now, finally, Mr. Schmidt, I think you also claim expertise 
   with respect to looking at Page 4 of your declaration, Paragraph 
   5, Subsection Roman numeral V, the practical ability of parents to 
   deal with the easy availability of sexually explicit material on 
   their own, you claim expertise in that area?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Now, your knowledge of whether parents either in general or 
   any particular parents have the ability to control their 
   children's access to the Internet is basically anecdotal, isn't 
   A   Through my teachings, yes.
   Q   Through  your interactions with parents asking informal 
   questions at conferences that you've attended?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   You haven't done any formal study of the ability of parents to 
   supervise their children while using computers, have you?
   A   No, I have not, no.
   Q   You don't have any formal training in family psychology or 
   child psychology, do you?
   A   No.
   Q   In fact you have no knowledge of how many minors use 
   computers, do you?
   A   Not specifically, no.
   Q   You don't know of any specific statistics regarding households 
   with minors that have computer systems, do you?
   A   I know of one study that recently was publicized in one of the 
   period-- periodicals regarding number of households with computers 
   and number where children use them but I don't know the specifics 
   from it.
   Q   You don't know the specific statistics, do you?
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   Now, a number of the adult sites you visited, and I think this 
   is reflected in the exhibits, had notices and links to various 
   parental software blocking products that are offered on the 
   market, didn't they?
   A   Yes, they did.
   Q   Now, in fact when parents at these conferences have informally 
   asked you for your advice about how they can prevent their 
   children from accessing sexually explicit material on line you've 
   told them about the availability of just these products, haven't 
   A   Not the specific products, the availability of products 
   similar to that, yes.
   Q   And when parents ask you these questions you also advise them 
   that what they should do is become knowledgeable about what their 
   kids are doing on line?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And you also advise them to take appropriate classes and learn 
   what's on the computer system that they own and make sure they're 
   aware of what's going on before they turn their kids loose, 
   haven't you?
   A   Yes, I have.
   	MS. HEINS:  Nothing further.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Mr. Coppolino?
   	MS. HEINS:  I think Ms. Kappler has a few questions.  I'm 
   	MS. KAPPLER:  Thank you, your Honors, Ann Kappler for the ALA 
   Q   Good morning, Mr. Schmidt.
   A   Good morning again, nice to see you.
   Q   Before turning to a couple questions regarding your 
   declaration in this I'd like to go over a few points that came out 
   during the questioning by the Court during your demonstration.
 	Judge Sloviter asked you a question regarding the creation of 
   the names in the URL to the Webpage addresses and I believe you 
   indicated to the Court that the person who creates the Webpage or 
   the Web name actually types in and decides what the name of the 
   page is going to be, is that accurate?
   A   The document associated with that, yes.  The creator of that 
   page would be the one that names that document as well, be it an 
   individual or a corporate.
   Q   Okay.  Now, in the universe of cyberspace there is no central 
   control mechanism that assigns names or Web addresses, is there?
   A   There is an organization called the Internik which has been 
   discussed before in the Court which basically controls to keep any 
   redundancy from occurring a master list of domain names and 
   Internet protocol or IP addresses.
   Q   Well, all they do is simply make sure that there aren't 
   duplicative names that are assigned, is that correct? 
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   They don't actually assign what the names are, is that 
   A   That is also accurate, yes.
   Q   And so t here is no central control which orders that material 
   of certain content should be labeled in a certain way, is that 
   A   That is accurate, yes.
   Q   Now, you indicated during your demonstration that the South 
   Shores Secrets BBS had changed its server or at least that's what 
   it indicated on them on screen, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Isn't it possible, technically possible that that new server 
   was located overseas?
   A   Yes, it is, that's correct.
   Q   Turning to your declaration, Mr. Schmidt, you indicated and 
   you indicated in your answers to Ms. Heins' questions that you 
   have had conversations with parents in which they have expressed 
   some concern about their children's access to sexually explicit 
   materials on line, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And in your experience parents concern in this record has no 
   relevance to the origin of the material, that is whether it comes 
   from abroad or whether it is of domestic origin, is that correct?
   A   That is also correct, yes.
   Q   All they care about is what it -- what the content actually 
   is, not its geographic origin, is that accurate?
   A   That is accurate, yes.
   Q   Now, in the course of your work on this case you tried several 
   different kinds of blocking or screening software, is that 
   A   I -- yes, I loaded up three different sites, yes, or three 
   different types, yes.
   Q   Now, Cyber Patrol was not one of those softwares that you 
   tried, is that right?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   You didn't try Cyber Patrol at all, is that accurate?
   A   No, I did not.
   Q   And with regard to Cyber Sitter is it accurate that you 
   installed that on your machine but that you never used it?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   So you never on any searches while Cyber Sitter was up and 
   running, is that accurate? 
   A   That is accurate.
   Q   And is it also accurate that with regard to Net Nanny, you 
   installed Net Nanny on your machine but that you never connected 
   with the Internet while Net Nanny was up and running?
   A   That's also correct, yes.
   Q   So you never conducted any Internet searches while Net Nanny 
   was operating on your machine, is that accurate?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   In fact, the only blocking or screening software you actually 
   ran, that is performed searches while the software was running is 
   Surfwatch, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   So you don't have any knowledge of how effective any blocking 
   software other than Surfwatch is in blocking sexually explicit 
   materials on line, is that correct?
   A   Not totally correct, no. And may I explain?
   Q   Please.
   A   There recently has been some on-line studies of net blocking 
   software conducted by some independent organizations in which the 
   results have been posted on the Internet.  I recently looked at 
   one and reviewed eight different packages and their relative 
   strengths and weaknesses as displayed by the researchers that did 
   that, that study on there.
   Q   But you have no personal experience, is that correct?
   A   That's correct.
   Q   Now, you have an AOL account, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   But you have not tested the parental control mechanisms that 
   AOL offers, is that correct?
   A   That's also correct, yes.
   Q   So you have no opinion on the -- no personal opinion based on 
   your experience as to the effectiveness of AOL's parental control 
   systems, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And you either have or have had a Compuserve account as well, 
   is that accurate?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   However, you have not tested Compuserve's parental control 
   mechanisms, is that correct?
   A   That's also correct.
   Q   And so based on your experience you have no opinion based on 
   the effectiveness of Compuserve's parental control systems, is 
   that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Turning to the exhibits that are attached to your declaration, 
   Tab X, I believe, marks all of the exhibits and it's Exhibits 43 
   through 52 that based on your declaration you testify you were 
   able to access while Surfwatch is running, is that correct?  And 
   I'll give you a chance to take a look at it.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Except for Exhibit 42, you mean.
   	MS. KAPPLER:  Correct, your Honor, that's why I said 43 
   through 52, in fact 42 --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Oh, you said it -- okay.
   	MS. KAPPLER:  In fact, Exhibit 42 is -- is not an on-line 
   print at all.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  42 is the first one in Section X, that's why 
   I say that.
   	MS. KAPPLER:  Correct, your Honor.
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, from 43 on out, yes.
   Q   And these are locations which you accessed on April 5th, 1996 
   while software was running on your machine, is that correct?
   A   I'm sorry, while what was running on the machine?
   Q   While -- excuse me, while Surfwatch was running on your 
   machine, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  Now, of all the other on-line images that are included 
   as exhibits to your declaration, all of the others were accessed 
   while Surfwatch was not running, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is, that's correct.
   Q   And in fact no blocking or screening software was running 
   while you accessed any of those other exhibits, is that correct?
   A   Yes, that's correct.
   Q   Now, turning to Paragraph 51 of your declaration --
   	MS. KAPPLER:  Which is on Page 43, your Honors.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Thank you.
   Q   You indicate there, Mr. Schmidt, in your -- in the last 
   sentence of that paragraph that in this limited check I simply 
   look, I took the list of Web sites found in my prior unrestricted 
   search and sought to find a few examples that were not blocked by 
   Surfwatch, correct?
   A   That is correct.
   Q   Now, by unrestricted search here you were referring to the 
   fact that neither Surfwatch nor any other blocking or screening 
   mechanism was running at the time, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   So is it correct to say that with regard to the searches that 
   were conducted while Surfwatch was running, what you did was take 
   Web addresses that you had found in prior searches and typed them 
   in to see whether Surfwatch would block those specific sites, is 
   that accurate?
   A   That is accurate, yes.
   Q   And the way in which you found these Web addresses was while 
   doing searches while Surfwatch was not running, is that correct?
   A   That's also correct, yes.
   Q   And you already knew these addresses when you typed them in, 
   A   Yes, that's correct. 
   Q   And in fact you knew they contained sexually explicit 
   material, correct?
   A   That is also correct, yes.
   Q   Because you had viewed them at some prior time?
   A   Correct.
   Q   Turning to Paragraph 47 of your declaration which is on Page 
   40 and turning as it carries over onto Page 41, is it accurate to 
   say that this location came up, and it's reflected I believe in 
   Exhibit 44, by typing in that full name that applies on the third 
   line from the top there on Page 41?  I don't know how many actual 
   characters it is, but it starts with HTTP://PILOT.MSU on and on.
   A   Can I have a moment to read the entire paragraph in context?
   Q   Sure, certainly, excuse me.
   A   Thank you.
   A   Yes, that is correct.
   Q   So you had to type in this entire name in order to reach the 
   site, is that accurate?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And this is  a name that you knew because you had found it in 
   a prior search that you had done when Surfwatch was not running, 
   is that accurate?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Now, looking at this name there is nothing in the name for the 
   words in the name that connotes sexually explicit content, is 
   A   No, there's -- it does not appear to be, no.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  In fact the domain name suggests that it's an 
   educational institution, does it not?
   	THE WITNESS:  That is correct, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Sorry.
   Q   But you knew that this site contained sexually explicit 
   material because you had viewed it before, is that correct?
   A   Yes, yes, I had.
   Q   At that time you viewed it Surfwatch was not running, correct?
   A   Correct.
   Q   Turning to Paragraph 48 in which you indicate another site 
   that you checked while Surfwatch was running that has that common 
   name called, quote, "Steamy erotic links," close quote.  And if I 
   can give you a chance to look over this paragraph and would you 
   tell me if I'm accurate that this is the same location that you 
   explain in Paragraph 19 of the declaration as to how you 
   originally found this search?
    	And Paragraph 19 is on Page 17, looking back to Page 17.
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  And as explained in Paragraph 19, the way in which you 
   found this site was you began by running the Lykos search engine 
   and searching for the terms "XXX SEX," is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And that's, just for the benefit of the Court and everyone 
   here, that would have been the similar type search that you were 
   demonstrating using the Yahoo search only it would have been used 
   -- a search engine only we're using Lykos and typed in XXX SEX to 
   see what kind of listing of various Web sites would come up, is 
   that accurate?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And as explained in Paragraph 19, through linking through 
   several sites off of that search engine result you came, finally 
   came to steamy erotic links, is that correct?
   A   Yes, that is correct.
   Q   Now, Surfwatch was not running when you did this Lykos search, 
   was it?
   A   The one referenced in --
   Q   Paragraph 19.
   A   That's correct, it was not running.
   Q   Okay.  And in fact if Surfwatch had been running when you did 
   that search your entire results would have been blocked, is that 
   A   It would not have allowed the search, correct.
   Q   That is to say Surfwatch, if you had typed in XXX SEX while 
   the -- on the Lykos search engine, a message would have come up 
   saying "blocked by Surfwatch" and you would have gotten no 
   listings whatsoever, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   So you would have got nothing in which to link off to to find 
   steamy erotic links, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Turning back to Paragraph 49 in which you talk about some of 
   the other sites in which you typed in specific names for in order 
   to see whether Surfwatch would block them, and Paragraph 49 is 
   broken down into Subparagraphs A, B, C, D and E, and for the 
   benefit of the Court I'm --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Sorry what page?
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Page 42. 
   	MS. KAPPLER:  I'm sorry?  It's on Page 42.
   Q   And just for the benefit of the Court and for you, Mr. 
   Schmidt, what I'm going to try to do is go through the same 
   exercise we just did to see where you found these links.  And I'm 
   going to try to group them because I think it's easier to do that 
   	Looking first at Subparagraph A and Subparagraph E, 
   Subparagraph A, this is the subparagraphs of Paragraph 49, 
   Subparagraph A you refer to a site designated as, quote, "PIX 
   Previews," close quote, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And as you explain it there, you first found this site by 
   linking off the Cyber Babes Web site, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And looking then down at Subparagraph E on that same page you 
   talk about a site called, quote, "The Alternative Page," close 
   A   Yes, that's correct.
   Q   And -- excuse me -- and similarly that is another site you 
   found by linking off of the Cyber Babes Web site, is that 
   A   That is, yes.
   Q   Now, if you would turn, please, to Paragraph 25 of your 
   declaration and that's at Page 22 and if you would take a look at 
   it and just tell me if that is a description as to how you 
   originally came to the Cyber page Web site or located the Cyber 
   Babes Web page?
   A   I'm sorry, you said Page 22, which paragraph?
   Q   25.
   A   Thank you.  
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  And similarly here you did the search for Cyber Babes 
   while Surfwatch was not running, that is when it's referred to in 
   Paragraph 25, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And while Surfwatch was not running that's when you located 
   the Cyber Babes home page, is that accurate?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And it was while Surfwatch was not running that you were able 
   to link from the Cyber Babes home page into both the PIX Previews 
   and the alternative page, is that correct?  The other one isn't 
   mentioned, excuse me.
   A   I'm sorry, I lost you somewhere and I apologize.
   Q   It was while Surfwatch was not running, as referred to on 
   Paragraph 25, that you first located the Cyber Babes Web page, 
   A   Yes.
   Q   And it was while Surfwatch was not running that you were first 
   able to link from Cyber Babes to the two locations that are then 
   later referenced in Paragraph 49, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Okay.  Now, can you -- I don't think you can tell from your 
   declaration but if you will look at Exhibit 23, doesn't that 
   indicate that in fact the way in which you found the Cyber Babes 
   Web page was through use of the Lykos search engine and typing in 
   Cyber Babes?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And again the Surfwatch was not operating when you used this 
   Lykos search engine, is that correct?
   A   Correct, yes.
   Q   Now, if Surfwatch had been operating you would not have been 
   able to access this listing, would you?
   A   I don't know.
   Q   You don't know whether Surfwatch would have blocked Cyber 
   Babes, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, I do not know that.
   Q   If Surfwatch had blocked Cyber Babes you would not have gotten 
   any listing when you typed in Cyber Babes, is that correct, you 
   would have just come up blocked, you'd get no listing at all?
   A   That would seem correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Excuse me. Why didn't you know, cause you 
   didn't try it?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor, I did not.
   Q   Turning back to Paragraph 49 on Page 42 and looking now at the 
   other three subparagraphs -- I'm sorry, I'll wait till you get 
   A   Okay.
   Q   The other three subparagraphs, that's Subparagraphs B, C and 
   D, you refer to three different sites there, one which are called 
   Honey Page, that's Subparagraph B, the second one is referred to 
   as Amateur Hard Core and the third one as the, quote, unquote, 
   "Fun Palace," close quote, correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And in Subparagraph D you explain at least as to the Fun 
   Palace, that's a site that you first found by using the Yahoo 
   search engine for the term, quote, unquote, XXX, correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And that's the search you had started to demonstrate with the 
   Court at least briefly this morning, is that accurate?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Now, when you did this Yahoo XXX search as with this morning, 
   Surfwatch was not running, is that accurate?
   A   That is also correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  Now, turning your attention to Paragraph B, the Honey 
   Page, you note that the exhibit that you produced by printing out 
   Exhibit 50 is the same as identified as Exhibit 11.  And I'll ask 
   you to turn to Paragraph 14 which is at Page 12 and just confirm 
   for me that that is an explanation as to how you originally found 
   the Honey Page Web site?
Page 12, Paragraph 14.
   A   Thank you.
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  And as described there and as demonstrated this 
   morning, you found that site also by using the Yahoo search engine 
   and typing in XXX, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And it was off links off of that search engine results of that 
   search that you were able to find this Web page, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.  
   Q   Okay.  Now, turn--
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Excuse me.  If you had just, without using 
   the site address, if you had just typed in with Surfwatch running, 
   if you had just typed in "Honey Page" or did you do that?
   	THE WITNESS:  No, I did not, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay.  So we don't know what would happen if 
   you did that?
   	THE WITNESS:  No, I don't.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Could I ask -- is it --
   	MS. KAPPLER:  Certainly, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Just to follow this line, is there any 
   instance referenced in your declaration when you came across what 
   some of us might consider hard core pornography or material 
   inadvertently without know-- without either putting in something 
   like "adult" or "XXX" or without knowing in advance that you would 
   get there by a link that went through some of this pornographic, 
   sexually explicit material?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, there are, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And in your declaration?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  But that's the business with Jasmine and 
   Beauty and The Beast, right?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, that's correct.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  And Little Women?              
   	THE WITNESS:  And Little Women, yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  With those exceptions, all the other 
   material you -- there was a -- was there always a warning or 
   something maybe even there, I'd have to go back, that told you, 
   that gave your viewer, a surfer the knowledge in advance that this 
   material might be unsuitable for children?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.  In most cases there was, as 
   you say, some sort of a banner that --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, that's why I asked, yes.  Go ahead, 
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, there would generally be a banner.  In 
   some cases the banner would be underneath an image, a graphic 
   image, and other cases would be strictly text on that page.  It 
   depended upon the site which would be the case.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But it was always -- it would give warning 
   just as when you walk into what's called an adult book store that 
   certain kinds of material is displayed there, is that right?
   	THE WITNESS:  That is correct, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay.  
   Q   Turning back, if we might, to Subparagraph C of Paragraph 49 
   which is on Page 42 which talks about the quote, unquote, "amateur 
   hardcore site," and would you turn to Paragraph 17 of your 
   declaration which is on Page 16 and please indicate as to whether 
   that explains how you originally found this amateur hardcore site?
   A   I'm sorry, which page was that?
   Q   It's Page 16, Paragraph 17.
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And this Amateur Hardcore site like the Honey Page and like 
   the Fun Palace, you originally found this Amateur Hardcore site by 
   starting with Yahoo XXX search, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Okay.  So for each one of these sites you found a specific Web 
   site address by doing a search without Surfwatch running, using 
   the Yahoo XXX search engine, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Had Surfwatch been running when you did the Yahoo XXX search 
   you would not have been able to get any of these listings, isn't 
   that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Surfwatch would have totally blocked your search under Yahoo 
   for XXX, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And then you would not have gotten any of these URL addresses, 
   is that accurate?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Turning to the one instance paragraph you have in the section 
   where you talk about images you were able to reach, able to find 
   other than based on your earlier on-line searches, I believe that 
   is, as Judge Dalzell was referring to, the ones that started at 
   least with the Playboy Magazine.  And looking at Paragraph 46 of 
   your declaration and it's on Page 40, that's where you discussed 
   this magazine?
   A   Which paragraph was that?
   Q   Paragraph 46.
   A   Thank you.
   Q   Now, just so it's clear for everyone, it was certainly not 
   clear to me when I first looked at these, Exhibit 42 are color 
   Xerox copies of the April '96 edition of Playboy Magazine, the 
   hard copy of the magazine, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  This is the same magazine you can buy in some 
   convenience stores or book stores or other places, is that 
   A   Yes, it would.
   Q   Okay.  These are not images that were downloaded from a 
   computer, they did not come off line?
   A   That is -- well, let me qualify that.
   Q   Sure.
   A   To the extent that whoever the author of this article put it 
   together whether or not they had downloaded those images and the 
   backdrop where it appears to be a computer thing whether they 
   superimpose that or it's just screen shots, I have no knowledge 
   of.  But these were the actual pages from that issue as depicted 
   in the declaration here.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And if one of my colleagues, cause I 
   wouldn't want to go and buy Playboy --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  They would have this magazine, right?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct.
   Q   At least one feature of this April '96 edition of Playboy 
   Magazine, the hard copy of the magazine and the one that is 
   excerpted in your Exhibit 42, is a pictorial of nude or partially 
   clothed women who have some kind of presence on the Internet, is 
   that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And in the text that accompanies the pictorial it gives the 
   URL or Web addresses of some of these, at least some of these 
   women, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is. 
   Q   And you took the addresses that were printed in Playboy 
   Magazine in this feature and typed them into the computer with 
   Surfwatch running to see if they were blocked, is that correct?
   A   Yes, that's correct.
   Q   Okay.  And you were -- you typed in three different addresses, 
   two of them were blocked by Surfwatch but one you were able to 
   access even with Surfwatch operating, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Okay.  Turning to Exhibit 42 which is the actual magazine of 
   Playboy and the fifth page, it's a page that has no text, has a 
   pictorial, there's a blue background a woman who is --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Page 5?
   Q   It's the fifth page --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Counted as, the cover counts as the first 
   	MS. KAPPLER:  Yes, I believe so, your Honor.  It's the one 
   that has a dark blue background, there is no text.
   Q   Now, this is the Playboy pictorial image of the model whose 
   Homepage or Web address you typed in, is that accurate, and were 
   able to access using while Surfwatch was still operating, is that 
   A   May I clarify we're on the same page?
   Q   Sure.
   A   The one with the chain on the left-hand side of the page, is 
   that correct?
   A   Correct, this woman has long dark hair, she's standing up 
   facing the camera.
   A   Yes, correct, yes, that is the one.
   Q   Okay.  Now, turning to Exhibit 43 and there's only one 
   graphical image or pictorial image in Exhibit 43, that is the 
   image of this model that you could access on line while Surfwatch 
   was running, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Okay.  And you would agree, would you not, that these are 
   virtually the same photographs, are they not?
   A   It appears to be the same individual in a different pose, yes.
   Q   Okay, but it's the same setting, same clothing, is that 
   A   Yes.
   Q   And there are bare breasts in both --
   A   Yes.
   Q   -- pictures, is that correct?  Okay.  So the way in which you 
   found this Web site was to have a copy of Playboy Magazine in 
   front of you in which there were these pictorial images and then 
   -- then also Web sites listed and then type in the Web site and 
   see a virtually identical image on the screen while Surfwatch was 
   running, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is, that's correct.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Just so I'm clear, so if Surfwatch is running 
   and you have typed in "Natasha, Sex Goddess," would it have 
   blocked that image or don't you know?
   	THE WITNESS:  I did not try that, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Does Surfwatch block material that has the 
   word "sex" in it?
   	THE WITNESS:  It appears that it does, your Honor.
   Q   So just so I understand relative to your testimony for this 
   Court today, the concern is that a child would get a copy of 
   Playboy Magazine and see these visual images and Web addresses and 
   could type them in with Surfwatch running on the machine but still 
   get access to virtually the same image on line, is that correct? 
   A   I'm not sure that that's my characterization.  My 
   characterization is that this is what was advertised in the 
   Playboy Magazine and this is what Surfwatch did not block.  As far 
   as anything regarding a child having access, that was not part of 
   what this is about.
   Q   But the only way in which you had access to that Web address 
   was by the fact that it was in the Playboy Magazine, is that 
   A   That is correct, yes.
   	MS. KAPPLER:  No further questions, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Can I take you back?  I know you want to get 
   up but I just want to take you back, before I forget your response 
   to my question a while back.  And we don't have a -- well, we do 
   have a reporter, but I think that I asked you because while I am 
   keeping my finger in these pages, I had asked you whether there 
   was any material that you came across inadvertently without 
   explicitly looking for XXX or et cetera, any warning.  I think the 
   warn -- leave the warning out.  And you said you did through the 
   Jasmine, was it through that series of pictures that seems to be 
   based on cartoon movie characters, is that -- is that what?  You 
   got me into the Jasmine through that?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, that was one of the sites, 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And those sites are primarily in your 
   Exhibit 33, is that right?  Is that the material?
   	I don't have a young child anymore so I don't go to these 
   movies anymore.  Okay, is that right, Mr. Schmidt, 33?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor.  It actually starts 
   at Exhibit 28 which is the results of a Webcrawler search for the 
   phrase "Little Women" and just goes through that entire section in 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Now, so while you were answering other 
   questions, I went back to the text accompanying that and that 
   appears on 33, appears about Page 29, your Paragraph 33.  But I 
   wondered when you were going to that, they were denom-- is it 
   correct that they were denominated "Chips Erotic Tune" and "Adam" 
   page, is that correct?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's the description in the upper left-hand 
   corner, yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, no, I mean -- oh, yes, you click back 
   to the page and so that somebody looking for erotic pictures in 
   the guise of children's movie characters would have either looked 
   for it or would have known, that person would have known pretty 
   promptly that this wasn't going to be the kind of picture that 
   they show in school, that this was going to be a picture of a 
   different ilk, is that right, by the word "erotic"?
   	THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, your Honor, I'm not quite sure I 
   follow the question you asked.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, I'm trying to figure out how 
   inadvertent it was or how without warning.  What concerns us, I 
   think, certainly me, is whether indeed one inadvertently comes, a 
   child might inadvertently, really looking for -- not designed to 
   look for this kind of hardcore material but who was just surfing 
   looking for material that young children might look for, having 
   seen the movie, wants to enjoy it, how inadvertent would it be for 
   that child to come across these pictures in the guise of cartoon 
   characters.  And so I'm trying to get, to find out how 
   inadvertent, did you just happen to be surfing and look for these?
   	THE WITNESS:  As far as the name, I specifically went on 
   search for things that I think a child would be interested in, as 
   pointed out.  If I may, your Honor, and--
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Yeah, but before you got to these, the child 
   might have been interested but before you actually got to these, 
   at that point was there something that let you know that this was 
   material of a different ilk?
   	THE WITNESS:  Other than the description in where it says No. 
   25, "Chip's Erotic Tune and Adam E Page," you can see by the 
   descriptions that some of the other responses on, looks like 
   Exhibit No. 32, those search results do not specify, other than 
   this one here, very much, the content of that particular page 
   prior to going there.
   	For example, you'll notice -- and it's not an exhibit 
   attached here, your Honor -- a number where it says 37, there's a 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Mm-hmm.
   	THE WITNESS:  Which would be the name I searched for.  That 
   link is indeed a link that goes to an adult content Web site and 
   that was one of  the ones that I saw by the search through this.  
   And there, other than the word "Jasmine" you have no knowledge, 
   clicking on Jasmine, what's behind there.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  See, I'm having the same, maybe part of 
   the same concern that Judge Sloviter is expressing.  You said 
   sexually explicit sites, you gave the opinion, can easily be found 
   even if one is not looking for them.  Isn't it true that it's 
   highly unlikely that you'll come across out of all the information 
   out there that you're going to come across a sexually explicit 
   site by accident?  I mean aren't the odds pretty slim on that?
   	THE WITNESS:  The odds, the odds are slim, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  Yes, really.
   	THE WITNESS:  If I may give you an example, this weekend on 
   my own personal, I was looking for some movies on the computer to 
   put as part of one of my teaching things.  I searched for the word 
   "M-peg" which is the type of movies that are on a computer system.  
   The first site that came up said, you know, "M-peg videos," 
   clicked on that and the first thing that popped up was a graphic 
   image of two naked women engaged in a sexual activity and said 
   "For more movies, click here."  And I was looking for something 
   totally unassociated with that.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  And didn't you just say to Judge Sloviter 
   that if you type in "Jasmine" and we get what's Exhibit 32 and 
   then you keep pursuing cause you want to see Jasmine, you're a kid 
   is your hypothesis and you want to see Jasmine, you just go into 
   where it says just "Jasmine," your testimony is that that is a 
   sexually explicit site?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay.  And I take it on the same exhibit, 
   what's "Mermaid Mania?"  Is that sexually explicit?  Second page.  
   The third to the last.
   	THE WITNESS:  I did not click to that site, your Honor, so I 
   don't know.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, so we don't know.
   	THE WITNESS:  I don't know.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Which one are you on?  I'm still on Jasmine.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  No, 32.  32, you see Jasmine, and then on the 
   second page, the third to the last.
   	(Discussion off the record.)
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  32, just so the record is clear, 32 is what 
   appears on the screen, correct?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor, that's the search 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And is it your -- are you telling us that 
   all of these sexually explicit adult --
   	THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor, I'm not, no.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Oh.  Well, how did you -- I mean like 
   "Jasmine's Lace Brokers," is that sexually explicit?  It's one, 
   two, the third one down.
   	THE WITNESS:  I did not check that site, your Honor, so I 
   don't know.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  You just happened to come across, not 
   knowing at all, is it your testimony that without knowing that you 
   just happened to pick the one that happened to be adult?
   	THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor, I'm not.
   	THE COURT:  The euphemism for "adult?"
   	THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.  If you'll notice, what I did 
   was I clicked on one above it, "Jasmine's Home Page" and selected 
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  You answered it, go ahead.
   	THE WITNESS:  And I clicked on Jasmine's Home Page and took a 
   sampling of some of the things.  Obviously, the one that said 
   "Erotic Tune," that one drew my attention immediately.
   	The other ones, for example, the other Jasmines listed there, 
   I had saw a demonstration during one of the previous testimony 
   about a search for a -- information on Fragile X, I believe it 
   was.  I went and did a search similar to that and came up with a 
   Jasmine which is what caused me to think about this Jasmine.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  All right, well, let me go back to my 
   initial question because now I really am confused.  I said to you 
   in all of this did you ever inadvertently come across, would a 
   child sort of inadvertently or did you inadvertently come across 
   any of this material.  And you said yes, there were some 
   instances, and you took me to Jasmine.
   	But now I understand that you knew that there was within 
   Jasmine something that might uncover Erotic Tunes, so that clearly 
   how -- I go back to Judge Buckwalter's question, how inadvertent 
   is this?  I mean there might be but how inadvertent from your 
   standpoint, in your experience?
   	THE WITNESS:  It is possible, your Honor.  To the extent how 
   many times --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, not it is possible, your -- your 
   	THE WITNESS:  Right, to my experience I have --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Your experience, yes.
   	THE WITNESS:  I have --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And in all of these exhibits was any of them 
   truly inadvertent?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And which ones?  Where you didn't know it 
   was going to be erotic or --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, I understood your testimony that all 
   these searches, Jasmine, Little Women and Sleeping Beauty you 
   selected because they were child-oriented titles, you had your 
   suspicions, I suspect, based on your experience, but my 
   understanding of your testimony is that you typed those in because 
   those are things that a kid might -- might type in and see what 
   comes out.  Do I understand your testimony correctly?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  We're really talking about the person who 
   is on this without any suspicions, he's just searching geography 
   in South America or something, it's unlikely he's going to come 
   across --
   	THE WITNESS:  In that context, in geography South America, 
   it's unknown, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Okay, well, we'll have our turn.  I'm sorry, 
   Mr. Coppolino, but we had asked him that question before.  
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Your Honor, your Honors, if I may, I'd like 
   to try and press on through and get this redirect done.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  It may take as long as 20 minutes.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  We're in no hurry, okay.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  Speak for yourself.
   Q   Mr. Schmidt --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  But we may have questions after you, so I 
   mean I'm not saying that we'll necessarily be finished with Mr. 
   Schmidt this morning.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  I understand.  I know I'd asked the clerk to 
   indicate a scheduling difficulty he has.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  He has to get to National Guard duty or 
   something, right?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Right.  We can continue on Monday.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  This afternoon?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  What time is your plane? 
   	THE WITNESS:  My plane leaves National about -- National 
   Airport in DC at 4:30, sir.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  So you have to leave here when?
   	THE WITNESS:  1:30, sir.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  They don't feed you on planes anymore.  Go 
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, you get peanuts.
   Q   Mr. Schmidt, you recall when Ms. Heins asked you if you were 
   highly expert in sophisticated computer searches in connection 
   with your work.  Do you recall that question?
   A   Yes, I do.
   Q   Did the searches that you undertook in this case that are 
   reflected in this notebook require highly expert sophistication 
   that you utilize in your forensics investigations?
   A   No, they do not.
   Q   Do they require much expertise at all?
   A   No, they do not.
   Q   Are key word searches a common means of finding information on 
   a computer, to your knowledge?
   A   Yes, they are.
   Q   Ms. Heins also asked you a couple of questions about various 
   equipment.  My first question is are most computer monitors 
   nowadays color monitors?
   A   Yes, they are.
   Q   And as we saw this morning, do the images on these monitors 
   appear in color, is that correct?
   A   Yes, they do.
   Q   And to show the Court an accurate depiction of what was on the 
   screen would you need a color printer in your opinion?
   A   No, you would not.
   Q   Now, to show the Court an accurate depiction of what showed up 
   on a color -- on a color monitor would you at least need a color 
   printer to show the Court what the colors were?
   A   As far as the printed version of it?
   Q   The printed version.
   A   Yes, you would.
   Q   Do you know what the cost of a 28.2, 28.8 modem is, 
   A   Yes, I do.
   Q   Could you give the Court approximately what the cost is?
   A   Anywhere from 95 to upwards to $300 but generally the average 
   price about $159.
   Q   You had mentioned that you'd used a pentium computer to do 
   these searches, is that correct?
   A   Yes, I did.
   Q   I believe you indicated that pentium is considered somewhat of 
   a state of the art, is that correct?
   A   That's also correct.
   Q   Was a pentium computer necessary to do these kinds of searches 
   on the Internet?
   A   No, it was not.
   Q   In fact could you have used a computer of the 386 generation 
   to do searches on the Internet, is that correct?
   A   Yes, I could have.
    	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Which generation, 358?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  386.
   Q   And about how old is the 386 generation, do you recall?
   A   Oh, it's probably three to four years back.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  i.e. ancient.
   Q   You also indicated to Ms. Heins in terms of your forensics 
   expertise that you were -- you had expertise for example in 
   extracting files from computers that had been erased, is that 
   A   Yes, I did.
   Q   And you also had expertise in examining files on a computer 
   that had been altered, is that correct?
   A   That's correct.
   Q   Did you utilize any of that expertise at all in doing this 
   investigation and making this presentation to the Court?
   A   No, I did not.
   Q   Ms. Heins also asked you some questions about the quantity of 
   sexually explicit materials that are available on the Internet.  
   How many searches of sexually explicit materials have you been 
   involved with in the course of your work throughout your law 
   enforcement career that involved investigations into sexually 
   explicit materials?
   A   Say somewhere between 30 and 50 different occasions that I'd 
   conduct that type of a search.
   Q   And can you describe to the Court your capacity in those 
   different types of 30 to 50 investigations?
   A   Yes, in some of them I would have been the investigating 
   officer involved, other cases I was the supervisor of those that 
   did, provided not only management supervision but also technical 
   supervision, other cases would have been as a consultant to other 
   law enforcement agencies that requested some assistance.
   Q   So 30 to 50 investigations all told?
   A   That's correct, at least.
   Q   And did your investigations involve, for example, examining 
   one particular graphical image?
   A   Some of them did, yes.
   Q   And what other kinds of investigations did you do?
   A   Other investigations of they would provide me 600 different 
   graphic images that had been found on a computer system and ask me 
   to locate them out on the Internet, what the source might have 
   been, bulletin board or Web site.
   Q   And how did you conduct these searches in order to find what 
   you were asked to find?
   A   Using essentially the same search techniques I used here, I 
   would go out and search for the adult content terms.  If I had a 
   specific file name I might even search on that specific file name 
   to see if I could locate it more readily.
   Q   And did you search for a range of sexually explicit materials?
   A   Yes, I did.
   Q   Could you describe to the Court in general terms the types of 
   ranges of sexually explicit materials that you've had experience 
   in in searching in these 30 to 50 investigations?
   A   Yes, some of them would have been the presumably innocuous 
   Playboy centerfold types, things depicting simulated acts, actual 
   acts all the way up to and including some of the more -- I use the 
   term heinous type graphical activity that's out there.
   Q   So your investigations have covered the range of that kind of 
   material, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Now, in order to view images that are available on the 
   Internet you need a computer, is that correct?
   A   Yes, that's correct.
   Q   Okay, that's what this case is about, images on a computer, is 
   that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Okay.  And without a Webbrowser you can't surf through 
   information on the World Wide Web, is that correct?
   A   There -- there is -- that's not totally correct.  There is -- 
   you can do, look for textual information using a non-graphic 
   interface but not to the extent where the World Wide Browser 
   allows you to view the images and have all the graphics that we 
   see on the screen. 
   Q   You need a Webbrowser to do that?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Do Webbrowsers have search engines built into them?
   A   They have connections to Web sites that have search engines 
   built in, yes.
   Q   In fact, we saw -- did we see an example of that this morning 
   when you connected to the Yahoo search engine?
   A   We saw a couple examples, yes.
   Q   So is it correct to say that if you had the Netscape browser 
   software you would not need to purchase separate software which 
   constitutes a search engine, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   That Netscape had, the Netscape browser had the search engine, 
   several search engines built into it, is that correct?
   A   That it connects to the search engine sites, yes.
   Q   And from there you could conduct the searches you showed us 
   this morning, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Is it also the case, as I believe you showed us this morning, 
   that the Netscape Webbrowser software has a capacity to allow you 
   to search various news groups, is that correct?
   A   That is correct.
   Q   And that was built into the software of the Netscape Browser 
   A   Yes.
   Q   I believe Ms. Heins also asked you some questions in 
   connection with the adult verification exhibits that you provided 
   for the Court.  Did you produce those exhibits to provide the 
   Court in examples of some of those mechanisms that are now 
   appearing on the Internet?
   	MS. HEINS:  Well, I'll just object to the leading quality or 
   the -- 
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  I think he's trying to save time.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Oh, I think, yeah.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  He's just trying to save time.
   Q   Do you recall the question?
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Go ahead and answer.
   	THE WITNESS:  And, yes, that's why I produced them, to give 
   the Court the sense of what was out there that people are putting 
   on the sites now.
   Q   Does your declaration purport to indicate that you are an 
   expert in the precise details about how each one of these examples 
   A   No it does not.
   Q   Are you aware of an increase in the number of Web sites that 
   are sexually explicit Web sites that are advertising, if you will, 
   or describing these various types of various adult age checks?
   A   Yeah, there's been a fairly significant increase over the past 
   few months of those sites that are saying, posting things such as 
   Surfwatch and First Virtual and these type of information on the 
   Q   An increase over the past few months?
   A   Few months, yes.
   Q   Let me just jump back to a question that I believe Judge 
   Sloviter asked this morning during the demonstration.  When you 
   searched for the term "XXX" in the Yahoo search engine, does Yahoo 
   search engine search for that term in the text of the document, in 
   the documents that are available?
   A   Yes, it appears to, yes.
   Q   And does it also search for the terms "XXX" in the URL heading 
   as well?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   So if XXX appears in the URL heading, is it your understanding 
   that Yahoo would pick that up?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And if the term "XXX" also appears in the text of the document 
   that's being retrieved would the Yahoo also retrieve that 
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   By the way --
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Would it be -- can I --
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Go ahead.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Would it be possible for one of these, all 
   of the groups to say do not allow any XXX, any material such as 
   that Mr. Coppolino just mentioned, to be shown, to block anything 
   that says XXX?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, it would be as far as the viewers 
   themselves, your Honor?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, very similar to the way Surfwatch works 
   where it blocks it out, doesn't allow you to see it.
   	THE COURT:  We heard it, yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead, Mr. 
   Coppolino, all yours.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Thank you, your Honor.
   Q   Also during the demonstration we went to Exhibit 3 in your 
   text of your declaration which was a warning screen.  Would you 
   take a look at that, please?  
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Exhibit 3, your Honor.
   	THE WITNESS:  Is that the one has "warning, warning, 
   Q   That's the one.
   A   Yes.
   Q   "Sexvision" up in the -- "Sexvision" security shield up in the 
   upper right.  Now, do you see the first sort of in purple print 
   says "Yes, I am over 18 years old and would like to access this," 
   do you see that?
   A   Yes, I do.
   Q   Could anyone click that on once they reach the screen and get 
   to the next image on the next page, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   You don't have to actually be 18 to press the mouse clicker to 
   get to that, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  By the way, if -- I know it may stretch 
   credulity, but if a child were honest and said -- and clicked over 
   no, I am not 18, what would happen?
   	THE WITNESS:  In most cases, your Honor, it would take you 
   back to the search engine or the previous location, the same as 
   using that back key would take you back to where you came from.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, sorry.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  And then you can go there again and press 
   the other button, right?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   Q   With respect to the -- let's take a look at Paragraph 54, 
   please, of your declaration?
   Q   Could you -- if you'd like to, if you'd refresh yourself, I'm 
   going to ask you some questions on this.  Read as much as you'd 
   like.  But my first question is have you ever advised parents that 
   parental control software such as Surfwatch or Cyber Patrol or any 
   other type of product by itself was sufficient to protect their 
   children from access to sexually explicit material on line; have 
   you ever given that advice to parents?
   A   No, I haven't.
   Q   Have you ever advised parents that closer supervision on their 
   part would be sufficient to protect their children from 
   discovering inappropriate sites on line?
   A   No, I haven't.
   Q   The circumstances of Paragraph 54, "In my opinion however, 
   user-based controls, while commendable, will inevitably be trying 
   to keep up with the addition of new and revised sites," what were 
   you referring to right there?
   A   The fact is, as evidenced by previous testimony, there are a 
   number of new sites being placed on the Internet daily, weekly, 
   monthly and so it would be a constant battle trying to keep up 
   with these sites and identify not only the addition of new sites 
   but also the changing of names, changing of locations as we've 
   seen through these earlier demonstrations.
   Q   The next sentence indicates that based on your experience in 
   law enforcement in this area which includes teaching classes to 
   officers at beginner levels and also substantial anecdotal 
   information from talking to parents about their children's use of 
   computers, "In my opinion many parents do not have the same level 
   of sophistication with computers as many minors do today nor the 
   time to supervise their children's use of on-line computers."
   	Could you just describe for the Court in a little more detail 
   your experience in meeting with and talking with parents or 
   students you have taught which leads you to state this conclusion?
   A   Yes, I do quite a bit of teaching, once again, of law 
   enforcement personnel, computer security personnel as well as 
   public speaking in various forums.  And it seems a common thread 
   through a lot of the either at break time or after the speaking 
   engagement, parents will come up to me and say, you know: I'm glad 
   I'm learning this thing because my kids know more than I do about 
   computer.  I don't understand, you know, what they're doing, I 
   have to rely on my kids to help me set up my particular windows.  
   And I hear that an awful lot coming from parents that they need to 
   get smart on what the kids have on their computers and how to 
   operate them.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  In another generation that will fade 
   however from the picture, don't you think?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, I do.
   Q   Ms. Kappler, I believe, asked you a number of questions about 
   various parental controls and measures, Cyber Sitter, Net Nanny, 
   she asked you about whether you had checked out, if you had 
   specifically examined those, if you had specifically examined the 
   parental controls of Compuserve and America On Line, do you recall 
   that question?
   A   Yes, I do.
   Q   Did you have the time in your preparation for this preliminary 
   injunction hearing to examine every single one of those products?
   A   No, I did not.
   Q   With respect to Surfwatch, I believe the last part of your 
   declaration contains examples of sites that were not blocked with 
   Surfwatch running, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Now, were the various searches you conducted that are 
   reflected in the declaration without Surfwatch running designed to 
   show the Court what could be accessed in an unrestricted 
   A   That is correct, yes.           
   Q   For the people who, for example, do not have Surfwatch?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   With respect to the sites that you identified that were not 
   blocked with Surfwatch running, why did you test Surfwatch by 
   typing in the site name?
   A   Well, a couple reasons.  First, during the demonstration in 
   court by Ms. Duval in the previous instance, she talked about some 
   of the blocking and I wanted to see if those particular sites were 
   blocked, particularly from a publication that conceivably one 
   could pick up a URL from and pass it amongst friends.
   	Traditionally, in those of us that use the World Wide Web on 
   a regular basis, we find sites that may be of interest and swap 
   that URL address just as one would say check out channel 7 at five 
   o'clock because there's a good show that comes on every night.  
   That's a very common way to pass this information back and forth 
   of sites of interest to us.
   Q   It's your understanding, Mr. Schmidt, that one of the methods 
   by which Surfwatch blocks sexually explicit sites is to previously 
   identify the specific site, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes. 
   Q   Did you type the specific sites in in order to test -- in 
   order to test Surfwatch's site-blocking capability?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Does Surfwatch also block by key words, to your knowledge?
   A   Yes, it does.
   Q   If a site has not otherwise been identified by Surfwatch and 
   if a content provider has not used a sexually oriented term such 
   as XXX or sex in its Web address, to your knowledge is it possible 
   that that kind of site would not be blocked by Surfwatch?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   It would not be blocked by Surfwatch?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   You were asked a number of questions as to whether or not with 
   Surfwatch running it would be possible to access sexually explicit 
   sites by a key word search.  Do you know whether or not sexually 
   explicit sites can be accessed through a key word search with 
   Surfwatch running?
   A   Depending upon the key word that's used, yes.
   Q   Have you ever done a key word search with Surfwatch running 
   which resulted in hits and access to sexually explicit sites?
   A   Yes, I have.
   Q   Could you describe for the Court just some examples of the 
   kinds of key word searches that you have done with Surfwatch 
   running that resulted in actual access to sexually explicit sites?
   A   As I mentioned earlier, I recently was looking for some 
   computer videos and that was one example where Surfwatch was 
   running in the background, typed in the M-Peg and immediately came 
   to a site advertising it.  After the deposition the question was 
   raised, I went back and checked some further sites using non sex-
   related terms like "pictures" and "women" and had access to some 
   sites that once again that came up with photographic related 
   topics as well as sexually explicit topics.
   Q   And those sites were not blocked at that time, is that 
   A   That's correct.  If I remember correctly, two of them 
   specifically were on university sites, ADU sites.
   Q   With Surfwatch running?
   A   With Surfwatch running, correct.
   Q   Sir, to your knowledge is it possible to reach sexually 
   explicit sites with Surfwatch running by using certain key word 
   A   Yes, it is.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And those -- those words were "women" and 
   	THE WITNESS:  Pictures, your Honor, yes.
   Q   Last question, there was also some questioning about foreign 
   sites.  In the course of your investigation did you encounter some 
   sexually explicit sites that appeared to originate overseas, is 
   that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   Are you involved in any efforts to address the issue of 
   sexually explicit site overseas by other countries?
   A   Yes, I am.
   Q   Could you describe that for the Court?
   A   Yes.  I'm an Executive Board Member of the International 
   Organization on Computer Evidence and one of our charters is to 
   deal with different aspects of computer crime or computer-related 
   investigations in a broader spectrum.
   	We recently had our conference in Australia in February in 
   which our representative to Interpol and Europol, an attorney from 
   the Netherlands, this was one of the topics that was very greatly 
   discussed because they're watching very closely the outcome of 
   this case to see about them enacting similar legislation.  And 
   obviously I'm not a lawyer but I know the term was used a number 
   of times, "dual criminality," where if it's a crime in this 
   country, is the way it's explained, that it could be a crime in 
   another country if that same statute exists as relates to some of 
   the sexually explicit material and the distribution through the 
   Q   So, Mr. Schmidt, based on the experience you have just 
   described, do you have personal knowledge that other countries are 
   examining the issue of the availability of sexually explicit site 
   on the Internet?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Your Honor, could I just confer for one 
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Thank you.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I want counsel to know that we're going to 
   go until the questioning is finished with Mr. Schmidt, unless he's 
   coming back on Monday or something, but otherwise we'll keep on 
   going and if you have a low tolerance for lack of food, well, so 
   be it.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  I have no further questions.  Thank you.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Any redirect?  Recross?
   	MS. HEINS:  Just a few further questions, Mr. Schmidt.
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes.
   Q   I believe Mr. Coppolino asked you a little bit about your 
   experience as a law enforcement officer searching the Internet for 
   sexually explicit sites in connection with criminal 
   investigations.  And again, this was -- these investigations 
   involved potential -- sexually explicit material that was 
   potentially illegal, is that right?
   A   It involved a broad range of materials, including that type of 
   materials, yes.
   Q   Well, you were involved in criminal law enforcement 
   investigations, so am I correct to infer that you were primarily 
   looking at material that might be illegal?
   A   Some of the specific images would have been considered as 
   such, but I had to look at all the material that was out there in 
   order to find specific images that related to the investigations.  
   Q   And I think you said that either as a supervisor or as a 
   consultant or as an on line investigator, you've been involved in 
   30 to 50 such matters?
   A   Approximately, yes.
   Q   So, it's fair to say you've spent a substantial amount of time 
   over the last decade looking at sexually explicit material on 
   A   That would be fair to say, yes.
   Q   And in comparison, you haven't spent an equivalent amount of 
   time looking, for example, at on line material that would be 
   provided by libraries, is that fair to say?
   A   No, that's not.  I also review educational material, as well.
   Q   Well, you've done 30 to 50 investigations and you've spent a 
   substantial amount of time on line in the area of sexually 
   explicit material.  Are you telling me you spent an equivalent 
   amount of time looking at on line material produced by libraries?
   A   No, what I'm saying is I'd look at a lot of different 
   material, including materials produced by libraries.
   Q   Right, but not equivalent to or even close to equivalent to 
   the amount of time you have spent on line looking at sexually 
   explicit material, isn't that right?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And you would give the same answer with respect to on line 
   material having to do with the visual arts.  You have not spent an 
   equivalent or close to an equivalent amount of time looking at 
   that material on line as you have at sexually explicit material?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   Now, most of the sites you've visited in connection with your 
   investigation for this case, I think we've agreed were adult 
   pornographic sites, is that right?
   A   They were adult-oriented sites, yes.
   Q   And most of these sites are commercial sites that after you 
   have entered the home page and perhaps a few sample pages, cost 
   money to go any further, don't they?
   A   I don't know that I could say that most of them were, because 
   I couldn't always tell what type of site, whether it was a 
   commercial site or in the first page that you got to see unless 
   you went further.  Not all of them would advertise or ask for 
   money initially.
   Q   Okay, let me put it this way.  Most of these sites either 
   asked for a credit card verification or some form of adult 
   verification before going past the home page and perhaps, in some 
   cases, a few sample pages, isn't that right?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   They wanted you to become a member, right?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   Okay.  Now, with respect to your claimed expertise on the 
   subjects of parents' ability to supervise their children, I think 
   you told Mr. Coppolino that this was based on parents who talked 
   to you in the course of your public speaking engagements or 
   appearances at conferences, right?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   Q   And this was therefore, a self-selected group of parents who 
   had questions for you, is that right?
   A   I'm not sure --
   Q   That they selected themselves to come up?
   A   -- that's correct, yes.
   Q   You didn't conduct any kind of empirical sample of parents out 
   there, these were people who came up to you and chose to ask you 
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And it's fair to assume therefore that parents who had no 
   questions with respect to controlling their children's computer 
   use didn't come up and ask you those questions since they didn't 
   have any, right?
   A   Either that or they were too shy to come up, yes.
   Q   And again, you've done no formal research regarding the 
   percentages of parents out there who may feel that they are unable 
   to control their children's computer use, have you?
   A   No, I have not.
   Q   And do you have any basis for reason that -- for thinking that 
   there's any substantial number of homes that have computers that 
   were not bought by the adults in those homes as opposed to the 
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   Parents generally buy computers for the home, rather than the 
   child, right?
   A   I would think that's accurate, yes.
   Q   And the same would go for the printer?
   A   That would make sense, yes.
   Q   And the WEB browser.  And in fact, with respect to your own 
   son, you supervise his computer activities, do you not?
   A   When I'm home, yes.
   Q   And you feel that you are capable of doing so, don't you?
   A   As far as capable of supervising him, yes, I do.
   Q   And you don't turn him loose on the Internet?
   A   No, I do not.
   Q   And although he's only 12 now, by the time he's 17, you feel 
   that he'll have a sufficient basis of input from you and from his 
   life experiences that he would not be harmed even if he were 
   exposed to even exploitative sexually explicit material on line, 
   isn't that right?
   A   It's my hope that would be the case, yes.
   Q   And it's your belief that that's -- that that will be the 
   case, isn't it?
   A   Yes.
   	MS. HEINS:  Nothing further.  Ms. Kappler?
   Q   Mr. Schmidt, Mr. Coppolino asked you a question about your 
   understanding or about what is going on in terms of foreign 
   countries treatment of sexually explicit materials on line.  Isn't 
   it true that there are countries which are far more lenient in 
   their treatment of sexually explicit material, that is, whether it 
   is deemed illegal or not illegal?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And in fact, when parents come up to talk to you about 
   sexually explicit material on line, you've advised them that in 
   fact, there are sexually explicit materials that might be deemed 
   illegal in this country which are perfectly legal in other 
   countries, isn't that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And Mr. Coppolino also asked you a question in which you 
   indicated that subsequent to your deposition, you ran some more 
   general searches with Surfwatch running, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   This is where you were typing in a word within a search engine 
   to see what kind of listing of various WEB addresses would come 
   up, is that correct?
   A   Yes, it is.
   Q   And I believe the two examples you gave were pictures and 
   women, is that correct?
   A   Correct, yes.
   Q   And Surfwatch allowed you to search for pictures, is that 
   A   Yes, it did.
   Q   It didn't block that, so in fact, you could look for things 
   that related to in any kind of way to pictures, is that correct?
   A   Yes, as I stated, some of them were photography type WEB 
   Q   Do you recall how many listings came up when you searched for 
   A   Not offhand, I don't know.
   Q   Well, do you have a rough estimate?  I mean, was it hundreds?
   A   I printed up a copy of them which I don't have with me.  I 
   could refer to it, if the Court would like at some point and give 
   you that information.  But I don't remember offhand, no.
   Q   Well, can you tell me, was it -- it wasn't a small list, is 
   that accurate?  Is that fair to say?
   A   It was a number of pages, considering 25 per page, it only 
   went, you know, two or three pages back.  Conceivably say 
100-plus links, but I have no absolute recollection of how many 
   numbers are involved.
   Q   Okay.  Out of those, how many were links to sexually explicit 
   A   I think just off the first page I found one link that was 
   connected to a sexually explicit site that was very -- that linked 
   me to that site, which then, that site then it linked like 
   STEAMIESRUS, in my declaration, it then linked to multiple, 
   multiple links off of that one again.  And I think I looked at two 
   of those in that process there.  And one of them, like I said, had 
   multiple links off of it.
   Q   Okay, but all these others, you didn't look at all these 
   others to see whether they were sexually explicit or not, is that 
   A   The titles of them indicated they were and plus the heading on 
   the beginning, it says, here's some more neat x-rated sites and 
   things of that nature.  But I didn't pursue them all, no.
   Q   All of these listings you're saying --
   A   I'm saying all --
   Q   -- suggested they were sexually explicit?
   A   -- I'm sorry, all the listings off that one link that I 
   checked, all those listings indicated that they were indeed 
   sexually explicit material off that one link that I linked off of.
   Q   Okay.  But I guess I'm asking you, on the original multiple 
   pages that had listings from what -- of WEB sites that related 
   somehow to pictures, other than the ones you looked at, all of 
   those other ones, as far as you know, do not have sexually 
   explicit material on them?
   A   Yes, I understand you.  No, they had various titles and 
   various pieces of information that did not indicate that.  
   Q   Okay.  Just for clarity's sake, for the record, do you have 
   the copy of your deposition in front of you?
   A   Yes, I do.
   Q   If you would turn to Page 335 of your deposition transcript, 
   there is a colloquy with Ms. Heins about your WEB Crawler search 
   for Jasmine, the word Jasmine, which is what's referred to in 
   Exhibit 32, attached to your declaration?
   A   I have that --
   Q   Are you on page?
   A   -- yes.
   Q   Okay.  And you'll see at Line 4, Ms. Heins asked you, why did 
   you pick the key word Jasmine?  And would you please read what 
   your answer was?
   A   That's correct.  "Because one of my searches on line, I came 
   up with the WEB site name Jasmine that related to some exotic, 
   sensual aids and sex things and I was curious to see, in light of 
   the fact that I have a child and I'm a Disney fan, to see what 
   sort of responses I would get for searching for some common Disney 
   character names that might relate to some Disney movies or some of 
   the movies."
   Q   So, when you ran this broader Jasmine search using the WEB 
   Crawler, you already knew that there was at least one sexually 
   explicit site that used the word Jasmine, is that correct?
   A   That's correct, yes.
   	MR. KAPPLER:  No further questions, your Honor.
   	THE COURT:  Wait, wait.  Mr. Coppolino.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Just a very brief couple of points.
I think one -- I should just clarify the record on one point.
Q  Mr. Schmidt, the search you were describing of women and 
   pictures, was that one or two searches?
   A   That was one search using those two search terms.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Am I permitted or can I just ask one more?
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Yes -- do we have ground rules that say he 
   -- go ahead.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  I just have one very brief question.
   	THE COURT:  Judge Dalzell has been setting the ground rules 
   with counsel, if anybody wants to know why.
   Q   Was your role in the investigation -- in the investigation you 
   undertook in the law enforcement context, the development of facts 
   for use by prosecutors and in court for a determination to be made 
   by a court as to the legal status of the materials?
   A   That would be correct, yes.
   Q   You, yourself are not a lawyer, is that correct?
   A   That is correct, yes.
   Q   And you, yourself were not making those legal determinations, 
   is that correct?
   A   That's also correct, yes.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  I thank the Court.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.  
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  You are a law enforcement officer and your 
   vitae suggests that you do a great deal of the practical 
   application of the law in connection with the obscenity 
   investigations, correct?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay.  And you are, I take it, at least 
   passingly familiar with the statute that brings us all together in 
   this case or these two cases, aren't you?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, I am, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, let's just -- I want you to -- I want 
   to take advantage of the fact that you are so experienced in this 
   law enforcement area.  And I'd like you to assume a couple of 
   things with me.  Assume that the law that brings us together is 
   ultimately deemed to be Constitutional, okay, that the law is 
   fine.  And that your job is that you now have to enforce that law, 
   working with the U.S. Department of Justice, okay?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  And let's assume that on two occasions, as 
   you meet with parent groups, you also meet with content providers.  
   Okay.  And let's assume that you meet with one content provider 
   group, which is a group of parents and concerned people about the 
   spread of AIDS.  Okay?
   	THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  And one group is in New York City and one 
   group is in Brainard, Minnesota, which as you may know, is where 
   Paul Bunyan is supposedly from.  And they come to you and they 
   want advice because they don't want to get in trouble with you, 
   because they know that they'll never meet Mr. Coppolino and his 
   friends if they keep you happy.  And they say we're concerned 
   about teenagers getting AIDS and we have a WEB site, one in New 
   York and one in Brainard, Minnesota.  And we have all decided that 
   the only way to prevent the spread of this is we actually have to 
   have on our site pictures of male -- of erect penises, to show how 
   to put on a condom.  And both groups say to you, but I don't want 
   to get in trouble with you, because these kids are all under 18.  
   What would you tell them?  And would your answer be different for 
   the people Brainard than it would be in New York City?
   	THE WITNESS:  I think with those assumptions being made, I 
   think my answer would be the same for both of them and look at the 
   context in which that material is provided.  This appears to be an 
   educational type context, not something done purely for pleasure 
   purposes.  And on that I would say, put the adequate warnings in 
   there so no one is surprised by this.  Make sure that information 
   is pertinent to what you're trying to say.  But I would not, as a 
   law enforcement officer, look to obtain material to go to a 
   prosecutor with that type of information.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Because of the context?
   	THE WITNESS:  Because of the context, yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay.  Now, same question is, you're the 
   publisher of Vanity Fair and you have all of your issues on line.  
   And the publisher comes to you and says Mr. Schmidt, I've got a 
   problem.  We had this very famous, controversial cover of the 
   actress Demi Moore when she was pregnant and she was naked on the 
   cover.  What do I do -- and it's all on line 
-- what do I do now to prevent you from coming after me under the 
   Communications Decency Act of 1996?  What do you tell them?
   	THE WITNESS:  Once again, in that context, it's a visual 
   image for fun, basically.  Not an educational -- it could be 
   educational, but for fun more than anything else.  And I would 
   tell them as well, depending upon the community in which that 
   image could be viewed, that standard would probably apply towards 
   the -- pursuant of the -- the rules of this law.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  So, it would be different in Brainard, 
   Minnesota, perhaps, than New York City?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's quite possible, yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  And you'd tell them that?
   	THE WITNESS:  And I would tell them that, yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Okay, so what should they do on the Internet 
   then, with their WEB site?
   	THE WITNESS:  Well --
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Well, not their WEB site, it's already loaded 
   	THE WITNESS:  -- my recommendation is to, once again, in 
   order to try to come up with some sort of a standard by using the 
   same standard we used in law enforcement -- a lot of other things 
   -- that's the reasonable person within that area.  If it's in 
   Brainard, Minnesota, put those standard disclaimers, adult 
   content, it may allow someone in the community that feels that's 
   offensive to not have -- allow their children to have access to 
   it, but the same token for those that don't find it that way, they 
   can still have unlimited access through some sort of a user ID or 
   a pass code or something along those lines.  They'd still be able 
   to show it, but you'd have to go through, I guess, one more step 
   in order to get to it in order to protect themselves.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  So, you'd advise them to put in a CJI script?
   	THE WITNESS:  Something along those lines, yes, your Honor.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Could I just ask this question?  I have 
   others, but I want to let Judge Buckwalter -- but on this one.  
   And suppose you were National Geographic and you were taking them 
   through India and you came across some of your material that had 
   all those couples copulating on the various Indian statues, what 
   would you tell them in that instance?  Not to put it on the 
   Internet or cut it out of the travelogue?
   	THE WITNESS:  Once again, based on my experience, I would 
   once again relate that to that's an educational thing.  It's a 
   cultural thing.  It's something that even though some people may 
   find that offensive, that using that reasonable person that this 
   is not something designed out there to create some sort of a 
   problem.  It's something that's educational.  It's just a part of 
   the life that goes on through that type of a magazine.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Go ahead.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  Well, I'm not going to pursue that.  I'd 
   like to pursue that, but I'm not going to.  One of the opinions 
   you rendered here was that you felt that the user base controls 
   would, in the long term, face attacks from those who may 
   distribute information on how to disable the program.  I guess 
   based on your many years as an investigator, wouldn't the same be 
   true of any kind of content provider base controls.  Aren't they 
   subject to somebody trying to disable them as well?  I mean, isn't 
   this a constant problem of law enforcement?
   	THE WITNESS:  That is correct, your Honor, yes.  That is a 
   constant problem.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  I mean, there's no difference than between 
   a -- in that area -- between a content based controls or user 
   based controls, is there?
   	THE WITNESS:  In that area of attempting for someone to 
   disable, no, there would be no difference.
   	JUDGE BUCKWALTER:  Yes, okay.  That's all I have to ask.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  As an expert, when did the blockers first 
   come -- when did you first notice the beginning of groups that 
   were interested in being able to block material that they thought 
   would be offensive to themselves or to children?  When did that 
   first happen?
   	THE WITNESS:  I think I first started noticing within the 
   past three months back to the six months back time frame, is when 
   I first started to notice those things pop up more frequently 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  So, it's relatively new?
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct, your Honor.  If I may explain, 
   I -- over the years, I've seen a lot of the disclaimers that says, 
   this is an adult site.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  No, that's not what I mean. 
   	THE WITNESS:  Yeah.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  I mean the technical blockers, such as 
   	THE WITNESS:  That's correct.  And these things have been a 
   relatively new thing that have been out there.  
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And is it your, again as an expert which you 
   claim to be, impression that Surfwatch is a sophisticated 
   mechanism or that it could stand some improvement?
   	THE WITNESS:  I'd have to say, your Honor, that it could 
   stand some improvement.  I think software, generally, in total 
   could stand a lot of improvement.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  And do you believe since this is a 
   relatively novel area, that when enough people with true 
   expertise, university expertise or law enforcement expertise, put 
   their energy and ability toward it and are not interested in 
   making money, which Surfwatch, I think they've told us they were a 
   commercial area.  But that even with the Government, that it would 
   be possible to reach a level of sophistication that would in many 
   instances, preclude the kind of instances that you have testified 
   about where it was possible to get around it?
   	THE WITNESS:  That would be correct, your Honor, yes.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  Any questions prompted by our questions?
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Well, in that case, I think we might break 
   for lunch.  
   	JUDGE DALZELL:  2:00 o'clock.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  We're done with the equipment, could I -- 
   unless the -- we're not going to use it again today or Monday.  So 
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  It's fine with us.
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  -- I'd like to have Mr. Schmidt take them 
   back to Washington, if that's acceptable to the plaintiffs?
   	MR. COPPOLINO:  Fine, thank you.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  2:00 o'clock.
   	JUDGE SLOVITER:  Thank you.
   	(Court in recess 11:55 o'clock a.m. to 1:01 o'clock p.m.)


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